Storage Discussion

Now that Dry Storage is possible, I think that we should look into Storage more. Specifically on what happens if you store certain cutscenes or dialogs. I'll explain my theory on how storage works.

Lets have an imaginary value. This value is at 0 when you aren't in a cutscene, and 1 when you are.

Taking out the Wind Waker does +1.
Putting away the Wind Waker does -1.

When Forest Water expires, it does +1.
Closing the dialog does -1.

When the Forest Water expires on the same frame as you pull out the Wind Waker, the Forest Water dialog overwrites the Wind Waker +1.
You now have +1 with the Wind Waker out, and the Forest Water box open.
Closing the box does -1, so you are at 0.
Putting the Wind Waker away does -1, so you are at -1.

-1 is Storage.

When you activate the next cutscene, it does +1, so you are at 0.
Since it's at 0, you can walk around normally and junk, but the text is saved somewhere.
When you activate another cutscene, the stored text is activated because it playing overwrites the new cutscene/text.


I don't think that -2 is possible, because I have managed to get into -1 with a dialog box open, and closing it didn't change anything or stack storages.

What I've noticed is that when you are a few frames from the ground in a WW dive, link slows down. Also, when you put away an item in the air, you jump up/down a little bit. When you put away the Wind Waker 3 frames from the ground, I believe it causes Link to move down and hit the ground on the next frame, so the Wind Waker stays out, but it does -1 and closes the HUD. The next putting away does another -1 and activates storage.

Now lets get some discussion going on.

Nice math, and that item put away is interesting.

Testing different scene interruptions could be great, for example if you can move during the Quill text on Dragon Roost, getting to the doorway load zone shouldn't be a problem. 

Maybe a storage PW skip? Not sure how that door does with storage. New BK skips for ToG, Wind, and Earth maybe too

Nook wrote

if you can move during the Quill text on Dragon Roost, getting to the doorway load zone shouldn't be a problem. 

Storing that does nothing, it just plays again.

Nook wrote

Maybe a storage PW skip?

Storage PW skip is old, I did it with door cancel, and I believe someone did it with chest storage.

Nook wrote

New BK skips for ToG, Wind, and Earth maybe too .

ToG can't really skip the BK. Earth BK skip with chest storage has been tested ages ago iirc. Wind, possibly.

Nook wrote

Nice math, and that item put away is interesting.

Testing different scene interruptions could be great, for example if you can move during the Quill text on Dragon Roost, getting to the doorway load zone shouldn't be a problem. 

Maybe a storage PW skip? Not sure how that door does with storage. New BK skips for ToG, Wind, and Earth maybe too

A "new" password skip does already exist. By storing KoRL's text and open the door to Tingle's cell you are able to get through the door on the pirate ship without entering a password.

I don't think there is any possibility to skip BK for Tower of the Gods, since you need the BK to open the sealed door which blocks you from getting out of the tower on your way to the boss room. About the Earth Temple, the skips we do have for that one atm seems to be faster than a storage skip would be, if I originate my words from my own testing. But idk. I have no idea about the wind temple. This might save some time on our way to the boss rooms though.

Anyway, very interesting theory Abahbob. I think you, at least, might be heading in the right direction with that! I have found some small tricks with this "dry storage" that would be useful in a tunerless run as well.

Btw, this glitch totally broke the game and I hate it since it took the feeling out of it </3

I'm not sure if this would be the right place the post this, but I want to share something that I found while learning to do PW with door storage.

I found out that if you pause while the screen is white from door cutscene, you can shortly see where you are. I found that this was very helpful in pulling off the password skip, as before I discovered that, I had trouble finding out where I was going even with the minimap.

rust45 wrote

I'm not sure if this would be the right place the post this, but I want to share something that I found while learning to do PW with door storage.

I found out that if you pause while the screen is white from door cutscene, you can shortly see where you are. I found that this was very helpful in pulling off the password skip, as before I discovered that, I had trouble finding out where I was going even with the minimap.

This is known, along with opening the map screen to see.

Oh, my bad then. Still though, since I found that out, I trust the door storage skip more than the ledge clip.

Storage can be used to skip the cutscene in DRC for the entering the main room.

It's not realistic to ever expect someone to get storage in an RTA to do that though, is it? I'm not really sure exactly how difficult WW diving with an object instead of a wall is since I never do it.

It is realistic, and while it's not the easiest thing it's certainly possible and has been used in the past few WR runs

That exact trick has been used? Seriously? I don't recall hearing about them or seeing them done...

A little thing about the form of wind waker dive that's commonly used to get dry storage, as I don't think everyone fully understands why only some ledges work for it.

There are two set-ups that can be used to get the dive:

1. Have an object at the top of the ledge that pushes you backwards and off the ledge.

2. Having link turn around when the wind waker is pulled at the top of the ledge. Link will turn around if there is a solid piece of geometry blocking where the camera needs to be when you pull the wind waker. This is the far more common form of dive spot used and you can tell the difference between the two by whether or not Link turns around for the dive. It also means that only specific points on some ledges will work, for example:

Original imageLoad image

you can wind waker dive off this ledge (stonewatcher) only so long as you are standing with the tree blocking the camera's desired position.

Yashichidsf wrote

That exact trick has been used? Seriously? I don't recall hearing about them or seeing them done...

No, not the exact trick. Also, that dive specifically is not realistic in a RTA, because it saves little time. A dive from a movable object going off a ledge that small is not realistic unless it saves 20+ seconds imo.

Matti wrote

2. Having link turn around when the wind waker is pulled at the top of the ledge. Link will turn around if there is a solid piece of geometry blocking where the camera needs to be when you pull the wind waker. This is the far more common form of dive spot used and you can tell the difference between the two by whether or not Link turns around for the dive. It also means that only specific points on some ledges will work, for example:

Are you saying that Link turning around for the dive makes him more likely to dive?

Abahbob wrote

Are you saying that Link turning around for the dive makes him more likely to dive?

To my knowledge it's one of the two ways you can get a dive. Being pushed off or having link turn around are sufficient on their own to enable the ledge climb wind waker dive. It doesn't make him more likely; for some ledges it's what makes him.

Matti wrote

To my knowledge it's one of the two ways you can get a dive. Being pushed off or having link turn around are sufficient on their own to enable the ledge climb wind waker dive. It doesn't make him more likely; for some ledges it's what makes him.

This is true yeah, but there are a few small exceptions in some places where ledges don't do that even if link turns around, not sure why, but because link doesn't get flipped along the center of where he is actually positioned, his location will be moved back when you wind waker dive. it's also how the backup spot at outset works, if anybody is wondering.

Yashichidsf wrote

That exact trick has been used? Seriously? I don't recall hearing about them or seeing them done...

The trick you are talking about has a ledge facing a wall right before the cutscene trigger, there are a bunch of spots along there at different heights to climb up and get storage, and it's very easy to get it first try.

I'd like a cutscene where you can move around if you store it and gives you storage back when it ends. I want to try and get double storage off of it. I have an idea to break camera lock if I can get, uh, triple storage for lack of a better word, and you can't use two text storages to do that. The only thing I can think of is the deku baba eating you but that sounds really painful... and I'm not sure there's the right type of NPC around who can help me do what I want to do... So any suggestions would be appreciated. :p

If anybody wants to test my theory, here's some steps, probably best for somebody on emulator... So after deku leaf but before fw... get storage. Use the boat and whirlwind thing to get up to the guy up there and store his text. Then you have to leaf back to the starting area of forest haven b/c if you don't you'll zone out. Now play his text and clear it when he's not on screen (not sure if he has to not be on screen :P). Now keep him off-screen and get storage again. You should hopefully be able to do that without getting camera lock. Now you have storage and there's a guy who if you have him on screen will give you storage too. Next go an use the first storage on getting eaten by the deku baba, hopefully still without using up the storage stored in the guy you talked to. Now while the baba cutscene is playing, quickly do another storage, but this time don't put away the windwaker. Play Wind's Requiem instead of putting it away. You should make sure that the baba cutscene has ended before you finish playing requiem, but I can't really see that being an issue. The end result of these steps is hopefully you have wind's requiem on screen but you have control. This will disable your C buttons but just after you finish the song you have a short window to act. While the song is playing, finally turn your camera to look at the guy you talked to. Mash wind waker so that it pulls just before the wind's requiem dialog comes up. Hopefully you get camera lock from the guy and then wind's requiem is on screen too. Finally, see if wind's requiem will break the camera lock. If it works and if there were some better place where you could pull off some similar steps...

If you don't understand what's going on here uh, the gist of it is, if you store an npc's text you can kinda store a storage in them until you get a cutscene while they're on screen. Things like korl or mailboxes don't work b/c they seem always be loaded I guess. So I want to have that storage ready to go when I get wind's requiem storage. The problem is, to get wind's requiem storage, you need to have storage and do a wind waker dive, which requires double storage. If you use text to get that double storage, it messes up the storage that you stored with the npc, so you need to get double storage without using text (and it seems like it is only text that needs to be avoided, but I can't say for sure...). The only thing I could think of on the great sea that could maybe work is a deku baba, and there's like, no npc's around there and it's really hard to get storage, so... yeah.

That's really confusing to think about. I think a list of instructions (1. get storage 2. talk to korok 3. etc.) would be easier to follow and I could try to do it then.

The WW pull takes you out of the deku baba cs, I think I heard, so it wouldn't work anyway. A way to get double storage without text is what I'm after, and I guess it probably doesn't exist.

Could you use the mini-cs of placing a statue from the trading quest on one of the pedestals in place of the deku cutscene? I'm pretty sure there was a cutscene of that happening, albeit a short one, but those pedestals are generally pretty close to ledges...

I have no idea if this is already known. You can store Wind's Requiem if you play the song while the wind waker HUD is gone (from activating dry storage) while also having a text box open, then close the text box as he's playing the song. This way you can move around while the wind direction compass is on screen, and when you press A to change the wind, it acts as a "cutscene on demand". I have no idea how this could be used, but it seems interesting. The cool thing about it is that during the wind changing cutscene, Link will still move if he is in the air, allowing you to possibly bypass loading zones and things (I think the loading zone will still activate when the cutscene ends though). If you could change the wind in Hyrule (which I don't think you can IIRC), you could maybe use this to jump toward the barrier and then change the wind in mid-air so Link would clip through it (I think). Activating it in water causes Link to spaz out. I haven't tested much else. You can't use items while the wind compass is on screen, however there is about one second after Link finishes playing the song where you can use anything before the compass comes on screen, even wind waker again. I have not seen people mess around with this before, so maybe it isn't known. Just thought I'd share in case it leads to anything significant.

A few people know about it, yeah. It's possible to screw with things by activating it at the right time, but I don't think anybody's tried doing anything significant with it.

One thing is I was hoping to be able to break camera lock with it but I can't find a way to get storage again. It's possible to talk to an NPC and be able to control whether or not pulling the wind waker gives you camera lock, but you can't do that and also get wind's req storage because the only ways to do that require text storage already.

You can also get wind's req storage while sailing if you store the sailing off-course cutscene and then pull the wind waker and req while korl is sailing you. You can also get a small window when you do it that way to pull an item, but iirc it requires closing the korl text with good timing.

r0bd0g wrote

A few people know about it, yeah. It's possible to screw with things by activating it at the right time, but I don't think anybody's tried doing anything significant with it.

One thing is I was hoping to be able to break camera lock with it but I can't find a way to get storage again. It's possible to talk to an NPC and be able to control whether or not pulling the wind waker gives you camera lock, but you can't do that and also get wind's req storage because the only ways to do that require text storage already.

You can also get wind's req storage while sailing if you store the sailing off-course cutscene and then pull the wind waker and req while korl is sailing you. You can also get a small window when you do it that way to pull an item, but iirc it requires closing the korl text with good timing.

What if you enter a cutscene (like when you first come to an island), and then change the wind during the cutscene? Does anything glitch out? I know doing it while in a Boko Baba's mouth causes link to be stuck in the air until he takes damage. Also it stays up even after the game over screen, unlike text which prevents the game over screen from popping up. So you can use or cancel the wind changing thing just as the continue screen is disapearing and reloading the area. I don't think it does anything though.

Alright, it seems that cancelling Winds Req after entering a loading zone gives you back control of Link briefly; not really long enough to do anything. Also if you press the wind waker button just before the wind compass comes on screen, you can play the Song of Passing while the compass is still on screen. If you time it just right, you can cancel Winds Req just before Song of Passing loads nighttime, giving you a couple frames to move while it's loading the night/day. If you could enter a loading zone during this time, WW maybe? I don't know if there's a good dry storage spot that is RIGHT next to a loading zone though... If you cancel Winds Req too early after playing SoP, you can actually move around while the screen is pitch black, and even pause the game and do everything you can normally do. The screen will not change back until you play SoP again. I don't think this has any other weird effects; it seems to be purely graphical. You said it's possible to use an item with Winds Requiem storage while in the boat, what happens if you play Ballad of Gales while Winds Req is active, then cancel it during BoG cutscene? There must be some way to WW in TWW :(

Alright, this is kinda hard to test, but I've been trying to do the following:
1. Get storage at Forest Haven using beetle's ship
2. Store KoRL's text
3. Get on top of beetle's ship and do a wind waker dive for dry storage off the front of his ship's roof, so that you would land from the dive right in front of the ship's loading zone
4. While you have the HUDless wind waker open (and KoRL's text should be up now), play Wind's Requiem
5. Cancel KoRL's text while Link plays the song
6. As soon as Link finishes playing the song, mash the wind waker button to pull it out again (also maybe try moving a step or two closer to the loading zone at this point)
7. You should now have the wind waker out while the Wind's Requiem wind direction compass is on screen. This time, play Song of Passing.
8. Press B to cancel Wind's Requiem at just the right time after the screen fades black (too early and it will not load nighttime, you will just be stuck with a black screen)
9. As soon as you cancel Wind's Requiem, run into the loading zone
10. My idea is that is would try to load nighttime (or daytime) at the same time you enter the loading zone for beetle's ship.

It might not work, it might do nothing, it might lock up the game, it might just have you enter beetle's ship AND make it nighttime, or it might cause some kind of wrong warp, I have no idea. Or maybe you can do something similar without SoP somehow. The point is, it's hard for me to test, so I just figured I'd post my progress. I'm gonna take a break from trying for awhile. I was mainly having trouble getting a successful dry storage off the front of beetle's ship's roof with KoRL's text open. It's possible to wind waker dive there, but it's finicky and annoying. Even after that, the timing for SoP's loading zone thing is kinda precise.

What happens if you store this loading zone? Can you still move around?
http://youtu.be/ag6YusISIzk?t=4m5s
And for that matter, how far out can you swim in that area? Is there anything to find if you swim really far out?

You can't store loading zones, sorry

Yashichidsf wrote

You can't store loading zones, sorry

Yes you can! Like, you don't literally store it, but if you have storage active you still have control of Link after entering the loading zone briefly. It still tries to pull Link into it because he naturally walks toward the loading zone. But that's why I asked about that loading zone in particular, because it doesn't load the next are and it doesn't pull Link. I will probably test my own question soon anyway, so don't worry.

EDIT:
Sorry, I mean to say, that you have control of Link for one frame or so, until you leave the loading zone, THEN you gain full control of Link (until the area loads). This includes items, but it's only about a second so good luck doing anything.

EDIT AGAIN:
Because of above, storing this loading zone is hard because I need to enter it for one frame and then quickly leave it I guess. Remaining in it still locks the controls. I wonder the effects if you were to swim away to the fake triangle island after entering the loading zone, so that you could use items in this state freely. I'm not sure if that would be the case...

You aren't storing the loading zone, you're storing the automatic animation Link gets when he enters a loading zone.

rust45 wrote

You aren't storing the loading zone, you're storing the automatic animation Link gets when he enters a loading zone.

Yes, I figured that out now. Thanks!

Post worthy crap right here:

It is possible to have storage as Medli, and possibly Makar or the things in ToG.

Get storage.
Jump onto a switch.
Before it falls, pull out WW and play Command Melody.

Because the switch falling is a CS, you are able to pull out the wind waker momentarily without getting Camera Lock.

I have no idea if this is useful, but I presume not.