All Permanent Flags

Some people were thinking about running this for the hell of it, however this brings up a question: what all counts?

Every NPC dialogue that changes after the first time you talk to them, all chests, all visited rooms inside dungeons, permanent dungeon flags (like breaking webs in deku), all areas on map, cow in house, all items (including upgrades that get overwritten), all hearts, all upgrades, all skulltulas, all quest items and songs, maps, compasses, boss keys, all masks unlocked, all cutscenes (at least trigger them so they wont play again), navi texts and owls, all beans bought and planted, all rocks destroyed (that stay gone), all breakable walls, all doors unlocked (that stay unlocked), dispell barrier, raise water in lake hylia, darunia cutscene in fire, free all gorons in fire, every loose key that can be picked up, light all torches in goron city and zora's domain, open shadow temple door, steal fisherman's hat, there's probably a bunch of other stuff im forgetting.

basically anything the game keeps track of and saves to the file that cannot be undone (without RBA or something anyway). Not sure about deku and hylian shield or goron and zora tunic actually (since you can lose them). I'd like to say count them, but debatable. You need them for stuff anyway, but idk if you'd have to keep them. Nothing thats only possible with glitches like 37th HP. also beat the game just because

everything I've said is just a suggestion of course

EDIT: do frozen eye targets stay unfrozen after you melt them?

Scene switch flags can either be permanent or temporary, so you'd have to check on a case by case instance.

One funny thing is that you can have some actors (like blue switches or the eye switch in Water Temple) that set perm flags which you can manage to keep locked on by savewarping

By the way can someone run this on mupen with re-recording on so that I can monitor how flags change with a custom memory viewer?

What about Navi texts? She should not talk to you at the end! So no sequence breaks.

-every red ice frozen
-sold out bombchu shop
-2000 points at Gerudo's archery
-all hidden (invisible) rupees that you only get once (starter rupees in Kokiri for example)
-all hidden hearts (behind the lavafall in Dodongo's Castle for example)
-open Gerudo fortress gate
-scarecrows that don't disappear (I know the one at the top water level changer in the water temple does not disappear)

I don't think 2000 points on archery is a flag.

"open shadow temple door"
This needs to be done as both child and adult.

Push all pushable blocks (shadow ship, spirit etc.)

Kinda have this feeling that when someone gets a "WR", a new flag is found and it's not a WR anymore...

What about permanent flags that are missable unless RBA or wrong warp is used? Such as being caught by a Gerudo guard for the first time that gives a cutscene only once, being missable when you get the membership card without ever getting caught.

Pedalpowertoast wrote

Kinda have this feeling that when someone gets a "WR", a new flag is found and it's not a WR anymore...

It's not really different with new glitches being discovered after a WR, and while that doesn't invalidate it, it usually comes to the eventual same result of being obsolete especially in a heavily invested TAS.

Jeville wrote

It's not really different with new glitches being discovered after a WR, and while that doesn't invalidate it, it usually comes to the eventual same result of being obsolete especially in a heavily invested TAS.

Except it is different.

It's like changing the definition of a category. Take 100% for instance; if we were to add maps/compasses/boss keys to the definition (and have a good reason of doing so), all of the runs would be invalidated because they are not 100% (though this will never happen). It's the same case for what Pedalpowertoast said; if another permanent flag was found, the runs of that category would be invalidated because it doesn't cover all of the permanent flags.

Apasher wrote

Except it is different.

It's like changing the definition of a category. Take 100% for instance; if we were to add maps/compasses/boss keys to the definition (and have a good reason of doing so), all of the runs would be invalidated because they are not 100% (though this will never happen). It's the same case for what Pedalpowertoast said; if another permanent flag was found, the runs of that category would be invalidated because it doesn't cover all of the permanent flags.

We could just call it "max% perm flags", and if somebody has a run with more flags than you, then they technically beat you even if they had a slower time. If two people have the same number of flags, then you look at the time to break the tie.

Okay, this is obviously just a joke. But it's not really any different than max%/low% in a sense. The idea is to be thorough with the definition in the first place, so we don't have to worry about it. I guess that's kinda the point of this thread.

The owl in Zora's river disappears after you open the waterfall. So no waterfall skip.

nathanisbored wrote

We could just call it "max% perm flags", and if somebody has a run with more flags than you, then they technically beat you even if they had a slower time. If two people have the same number of flags, then you look at the time to break the tie.

Okay, this is obviously just a joke. But it's not really any different than max%/low% in a sense. The idea is to be thorough with the definition in the first place, so we don't have to worry about it. I guess that's kinda the point of this thread.

I second this.

I leave for like a week and we've come to this?  ::)

Apasher wrote

Except it is different.

It's like changing the definition of a category. Take 100% for instance; if we were to add maps/compasses/boss keys to the definition (and have a good reason of doing so), all of the runs would be invalidated because they are not 100% (though this will never happen). It's the same case for what Pedalpowertoast said; if another permanent flag was found, the runs of that category would be invalidated because it doesn't cover all of the permanent flags.

I wasn't disputing that.

I was saying:

All permanent flags:
Got WR > new flags found > invalidated and obsolete

Other category (100%, etc.):
Got WR > new glitches found > not invalidated, but will be obsolete

Different? Yes. In the eventual scheme of things when it's a given that it will be obsolete in both cases? Not too different.

I wasn't going over with what you were saying about missing something (or a rule change) in a 100% or finding out one of the items can be skipped in a low% that can invalidate the WR. I'm agreeing with you.

So, is my question gonna get answered to get the point of this thread moving? :P

We could do a well documented subset, like all permanent scene flags since these are the easiest flags to track atm.

i want to make a file and have every possible permament flag activated so i'm keeping track of this thread.

i want to make the file in the 3DS version since that version has even more flags (Sheikah Stone hints and Boss Rush battles)

Should point out that not only the Water Medallion CS cannot be skipped, but the Fire Medallion CS cannot be skipped as well since the ring around Death Mountain doesn't disappear when you skip the CS.

Heart Piece atop the Child Link Gerudo Fortress.

GeneraLight wrote

Heart Piece atop the Child Link Gerudo Fortress.

I wouldn't count anything that's only possible with glitches

999 deaths on file screen.

nathanisbored wrote

I wouldn't count anything that's only possible with glitches

I have always thought of the Cucco Jump as being a goof on Nintendo's part. All that you are doing is a jump they thought couldn't be done. You aren't "breaking" the game. You are using the physics engine to its fullest potential.

If you allow that though, you can't "complete" all permanent flags yet since you can't the Kakariko Graveyard Heart Piece inside of the chest in scene setup 0 with the tricks we currently know. Also, how would you deal with the Jabu-Jabu heart piece that maps to an existing chest (containing either the map or compass)?.

mamamia1001 wrote

999 deaths on file screen.

does it stop at 999? I never checked.

What does the gold skulltula counter stop at, or does it? I know it goes past 1000

999 deaths isnt a flag, it's a counter. If you call it a flag you'd have to say 998 deaths is also a flag, which means it would get overwritten when you get 999. Also, whether or not cucco jump is a glitch, the idea is not to count anything that wasn't intended. This is a completion category along the same lines as 100%.

Cosmo wrote

does it stop at 999? I never checked.

no idea

nathanisbored wrote

999 deaths isnt a flag, it's a counter. If you call it a flag you'd have to say 998 deaths is also a flag, which means it would get overwritten when you get 999.

If the the counter stops at 999, then it's a permanent flag. 998 deaths wouldn't be a permanent flag because it can be overidden by 999 deaths, just like how an NPC's dialogue changes if you speak to them.


I don't actually expect anyone to implement 999 deaths into an all flags run (even though I think they technically should), I'm just throwing it out there.

I'm guessing the code is "if deaths > 999, then set deaths equal to 999" or something. So it wouldn't be a flag, it performs this check at every death. I would be very surprised if there is actually a flag in the save data specifically for "maxed out deaths".

mzxrules wrote

If you allow that though, you can't "complete" all permanent flags yet since you can't the Kakariko Graveyard Heart Piece inside of the chest in scene setup 0 with the tricks we currently know. Also, how would you deal with the Jabu-Jabu heart piece that maps to an existing chest (containing either the map or compass)?.

True, but it's still a permanent flag and an extra Heart Piece. We may never be able to get those other two Heart Pieces in OoT, even though they're both possible in OoT3D. Your file isn't 100% completed if there's still a Heart Piece floating in plain sight on top of the Gerudo Fortress as Child Link. If there's absolutely no way of checking a permanent flag without straight-up hacking, then it really can't be a part of 100%. Plus I think the mega flips, damage boosting and wrong warping/bomb hovering to get across the valley and up the fortress would be interesting and entertaining to watch, add more variety of glitched gameplay and add skill the runs.

About the death counter, it's a counter and not a permanent flag like nathan said. That's like wanting 999:59:59 Hours if the game had a playtime counter.

Also, I've heard that 0 Deaths plays the Scarecrow's Song at the end of the credits if you've play the Scarecrow's Song to Bonooru as both a child and adult. Also, to me, Ocarina of Time is about min/maxing. Minimal deaths, minimal times, maximum scores, all permanent flags checked, colored gauntlets, maximum upgrades and 100%.

Does the ass chest count for the GC/MQ version? It can be opened infinite times, but not for the GC/MQ version. Will that chest, with it open, still disappears after obtaining the quiver?

It's a little silly to include scene flags that were never intended to be accessed like 37th heart piece, or scene flags that weren't even intended to be used like ass chest, and it's ridiculous to include scene flags that are impossible like 38th/39th HP. You have to use a bit of human judgement to make these calls, which is why we're discussing what counts in this thread. If you want a purist definition, just look at the save data and count every flag: http://cloudmodding.com/zelda/ootsave

It's for curiosity's sake to see if the game sees it as a flag to help with the documentation. Only for speedrunning purposes (outside of a bingo) do I agree to exclude unintended ones seeing how some are inaccessible.

nathanisbored wrote

and it's ridiculous to include scene flags that are impossible like 38th/39th HP.

Well yeah. Because they're impossible to get, they are excluded and not part of 100%.

I just remembered a good one I discovered:

In the Bottom of the Well's main room, there is a barred door that should always stay barred since it's meant to be a one way door. However, if you manage to kill all of the enemies in that room, the clear flag will be set, unlocking the door.