Death on Stairs = Run is Invalid? Discuss.

Originally, we had timing end when you touched the staircase. Back in the day, you had to defeat Dethyl, so this made sense as it was the last input that could ensure that you would beat the game. Timing started on file select and ended when you lost control of Link as he entered the final cutscene. JRTA timing is a little different in that they ended on the final input, which is during the final cutscene.

However, we then found Dethyl Skip. Dethyl Skip meant that you didn't have to fight the final boss, yay! But it came with a problem: after touching the stairs, it is possible to take damage. Because of this, it's possible to die before reaching the final cutscene, and thus you will never reach the credits. Previously it was ruled that timing ended at stairs, even if you die after. I propose we change this.

Timing will stay the same, but if you die then you have not beaten the game. I am willing to go through every single old LA and LADX run to ensure that this is the case. This will invalidate many runs, including my own runs, and I'm okay with that.

I would very much like the community to decide on this swiftly. If every runner of a particular category agrees to it, then I can start with that category. We don't need to worry about JRTA here, because in JRTA timing if you die on stairs the run is dead anyway.

This will mostly affect the shorter categories, namely Any% and All Instruments, since you beat those categories with 3 hearts only.

I can see this being a very unpopular change for some and I totally understand that. But the fact is that this is a very outdated rule and should have likely been discussed a while ago. As someone who started as an any% runner and threw away all runs that died on the stairs, including one that beats the current any% wr, I actually support this change. It's a kind of tricky subject as as far as I know the rules don't actually state that dying on the stairs count, it just says that timing ends there and after dethyl skip was found we just kinda interpreted it how we wanted. This is why I've always said I prefer jrta timing over ours.

Interested in hearing feedback about this.

I definitely approve of invalidating runs that don't reach the credits, as an all instruments runner. I still think it's a bit weird for a run to die after time, but this is probably the best solution which doesn't involve retiming old runs.

So this is a part of a post Giuo made a while back when rules were reconsidered.

"The only one of these tricks currently used by any run on the leaderboard is the walk-on-ceiling glitch. Because this is only a tiny 5 second time saver, we have decided that any run posted before this data (august 16) that uses it can remain there. However, new submissions are forbidden from using this trick."

I feel like this could be fair if we go forward with a rule change, and it shows that we as a community can make changes to rules and continue on.

Flynn wrote

So this is a part of a post Giuo made a while back when rules were reconsidered.

"The only one of these tricks currently used by any run on the leaderboard is the walk-on-ceiling glitch. Because this is only a tiny 5 second time saver, we have decided that any run posted before this data (august 16) that uses it can remain there. However, new submissions are forbidden from using this trick."

I feel like this could be fair if we go forward with a rule change, and it shows that we as a community can make changes to rules and continue on.

I think I can agree with this, and talking with others on Skype, this seems to be the best option. It means we have to go ham with verifying, but we should do that anyway. It may seem strange to some at first that old runs with the old rules are allowed, but I'll use a real-world sports example:

Table Tennis' ruleset were revised in 2000-2002 in order to change ball size. They also changed the games from a 21-point system to an 11-point system. Serve rotation was changed from 5 points to 2. Real sports change rules whenever something comes up, and for LA/DX this is something that has come up and deserves to be re-evaluated. That said, none of the old Table Tennis records were invalidated because of this. As such, I will take back my opinion on invalidating old runs, and simply settle to have rules change for future runs.

I very much dislike the idea of a timing structure that allows a run to become invalidated after it has completed. It makes no sense conceptually, and as far as I know, is without precedent in any other speedrun game. If this is a problem, it would be better to change the end timing to a point after which Link cannot die. Maybe after the screen fades to white, or some point during the ending cutscene - doesn't really matter where exactly, as long as it's past the point where Dethyl can kill Link.

I agree with giuo; if we're going to change the rule on dying on stairs (or formalize it? I know it was talked about before with people not liking the idea of dying but a run completing) we should change the end timing to where it's not possible to die. Easy choices imo is when the screen fades to white when link reaches the top of the stairs, or when the instruments appear to align with the J community timing and having the run end at last input (although the start timing would still be different).

I like option 2 a lot better in a vacuum but I feel that throws an issue with how to deal with past runs, since there are a few where the runner (reasonably so) responds to chat or doesn't stay in speedrun mode during the final few text sequences, notably Zorlax's current best. With others it would be a matter of retiming the last 20s or so and adding the additional time onto their recorded time, but idk. It feels unfair to those who did the speedrun but didn't keep speedrunning the windfish dialogue and the only way to remedy that would be to just give a reasonable average/figure on how long the sequence should take and just sum that onto the times of people who didn't  do that, but that solutions has issues, lol.

Other option being on fade to white at top of stairs, is easy, readily translatable as a static time figure, and can simply be added onto every current run's time with accuracy and fairness.

I don't care either way what the decision is since I don't run this game seriously at all. I went ahead and asked a few members of the Japanese community what they thought using Google Translate and combined there responses here.

I agree with the idea of splitting when the instruments appear, it had always seemed logical in my head that it was when the "true" last input was pressed. But I don't think it would be so much unfair. I mean, sometimes we have to change the rules in order to progress, and changes aren't that bad.

Also Zorlax has deleted his time from the leaderboard so this won't be a problem haha.

LoenP wrote

Other option being on fade to white at top of stairs, is easy, readily translatable as a static time figure, and can simply be added onto every current run's time with accuracy and fairness.

This feels rather fair to me.

I definitely agree that dying on stairs should be an invalid run, since the point is to reach the credits as fast as possible, and to end time on the last meaningful input, but if you die, you don't reach the credits.

In my eyes, touching the stairs is THE last meaningful input, since you can avoid death on the stairs, even with 1/2 a heart, you're in control of whether you die or not there based on how you control dethyl's position at the end. I don't know much about that cause I've never had to deal with it, just going on what I've seen others say in skype lol

I'm fine with changing the timing as well, I just think it's easier, and makes more sense to me the first way.

I agree with the timing ending when the screen fades to white.

As for previous runs, please invalidate them. The point of speedrunning is to BEAT the game as fast as possible -- it becomes a matter of contradiction when validating runs that have not legitimately beaten the game. To 'beat the game' should be defined as "reaching the credits is no longer reversible."

Changing timing to fade-to-white also seems like a good solution. Though I don't see the merit in changing timing to the point where you hold the instruments up, unless we want to go full JRTA. It seems not quite fair to past runners who didn't mash through that part. Of course, we could go with adding the "average" time it takes, but this gets a lot more messy from my perspective.

<LeafeonZ>: but ending on fade to white is my vote
<LeafeonZ>: in second is keeping time on stairs, and if you die, it doesn't count, and in last is dying on stairs counting
<LeafeonZ>: oh, but that's still ahead ending time where JRTA ends it

On behalf of leafeon on irc, I hope he doesn't mind me reposting him.

The idea of changing the rules to death on stairs making a run invalid sounds like a good idea to me.
It feels weird to have a run be counted as a world record which ends on a Game over screen (as happened with mine - which I have since replaced with a tied time that actually reaches credits)
As for when the timer should stop... to avoid any more confusion, waiting for the fade to white animation at the top of the stairs makes a lot of sense even if it would mean a lot of re-timed runs and such.

Okay so, first i wanted the split to be when the instruments appear because i thought the fade would not have been enough accurate. Though I just tested it and I changed my mind. The fade one seems to be good.

Just a little question to clarify the thing, the split would be when the screen is completely white (~when the music changes), or at the beginning of the fade ? I guess it's the first choice but I want to be sure instead of remaining in ignorance !

It has to be at or past the point that Link and Dethyl unload. This may happen as soon as the screen is fully white, but we may have to do some testing to make sure.

Well, unless I'm missing something with GT weighing in that covers all the 3 heart runners that this change would actually affect.

Eh, changing the end time point seems unnecessary. If you utilize a glitch to warp to the credits, but it had the possibility to softlock a few seconds into the cutscene, you wouldn't move the end time point back past the start of the credits.

mzxrules wrote

Eh, changing the end time point seems unnecessary. If you utilize a glitch to warp to the credits, but it had the possibility to softlock a few seconds into the cutscene, you wouldn't move the end time point back past the start of the credits.

Actually, this happened in Oracle of Ages. If you were to do Veran Skip, the end time actually is later than if you were to kill Veran directly, since there is the possibility of softlocking the game if you do Veran Skip incorrectly. This was done in order to ensure that when timing ends you are guaranteed to reach credits.

It looks like these are our three possibilities:
1. Change nothing. Timing ends at stairs regardless of if you die or not after.
2. Slightly modify timing so that it ends when screen fades to white as you transition.
3. Greatly modify timing so that it ends when Link holds the instruments above his head.

Then there's a question of what to do for past runs:
1. No runs modified.
2.a. All old runs that died to Dethyl will be invalidated. Retiming will not occur.
2.b. All old runs that died to Dethyl will not be invalidated, but all future runs will be. Retiming will not occur.
3.a. All old runs that died to Dethyl will be invalidated. Retiming will occur, and runs that do not reach the Instruments screen will be invalidated.
3.b. All old runs that died to Dethyl will be invalidated. Retiming will occur, and an "average" time will be added to every run to emulate as if they reached the Instruments screen in the event that they didn't.

I am a fan of either 2.a. or 2.b. If everybody is in agreement for that, the question is whether or not old runs should be invalidated, or if we as a community will overlook that and only consider new runs to be affected by this ruleset change. If there are options I've missed, please list them and add them.

I guess I need to offer my two cents.

There is no way that dying on the stairs should still count as a "valid" run. The end-timing of "when Link touches the stairs" was a carryover from times where one could not die after that point. Adding an "average" amount of time is also fairly strange notion, as we can see by our precedent with OoB in Tal Tal Heights. We did add 5s to those runs that had it, rather we just left them the way they were.

While I would like the JRTA timing, it would allow an unfair advantage to those who were actually paying attention during the final cutscene. Timing at the screen fading to white is probably the best way to go, since it would not force us to add an "average" amount of time, we can simply retime all of the runs (or add however many frames it takes).

For me, though, the biggest issue that we need to address, and have needed to address for a while, is the exact frame when timing ends. In my redacted 1:09:59.87 run, I had a lot of trouble getting a definitive answer on what frame exactly timing begins and ends. While that may seem like a simple notion (timing begins on file select, ends when Link touches the stairs), locating the exact frame was such a hassle, and I ended up making my own definition, which I thought was accurate. In other words, I'd like to see screenshots of exactly what frame is beginning and end (as well as a few frames before and after each section). Whatever we DO decide on, I think this is the most important part (especially for the Any% runners, where frames actually matter).

I hope we can come to a timely, definitive decision on this issue in the coming days. Thank you.

EDIT:

We also should have all future submissions reach the "The End" screen, incase any other timing issues come into play in the coming years.

I did some memory snooping.

There is a particular byte that indicates the "scene" you are in. This includes overworld, so not cutscene. If that value were to change to a particular byte, the final cutscene will trigger. This occurs whenever you change the byte, i.e. I can change it using memory editing in Marin's house and immediately trigger the final cutscene. To me, this is the point where the game acknowledges that you have beaten it. If everybody is okay with that, I will go ahead and set a breakpoint for when that value changes in the final fight. I will get a screenshot or even a video for when it happens so that everybody can see when timing ends. There will be no guesswork involved.

How does that sound to everybody?

Deln's account isn't activated, so he asked me to voice his opinion:

Deln wrote

1. if you make it so all previous runs are invalid, better remove all of mine
2. timing on fade out
3. f*** any%

mabdulra wrote

Deln's account isn't activated

Yes it is.

mzxrules wrote

Yes it is.

Well, I guess Deln then really wanted me to post on his behalf. :P

mabdulra wrote

I did some memory snooping.

There is a particular byte that indicates the "scene" you are in. This includes overworld, so not cutscene. If that value were to change to a particular byte, the final cutscene will trigger. This occurs whenever you change the byte, i.e. I can change it using memory editing in Marin's house and immediately trigger the final cutscene. To me, this is the point where the game acknowledges that you have beaten it. If everybody is okay with that, I will go ahead and set a breakpoint for when that value changes in the final fight. I will get a screenshot or even a video for when it happens so that everybody can see when timing ends. There will be no guesswork involved.

How does that sound to everybody?

I agree with this notion. However, may I ask what address this byte is at? :P

I agree with mabs options 2a and 2b. I dont mind retiming or any of that and ive never died on the stairs once  :P but i think that time should stop on the frame where the screen is white.

Like I said, I like on instruments the most in theory but for practical reasons I think on white is our best option here. I also feel retimings wouldn't be hard since it should remain a static figure, and even if retimings were done by hand, wouldn't take much time as it's only a 2-4 seconds difference.

Whether or not to invalidate prior runs is a tough issue for me to call, since I feel that for all categories that aren't Any% or AI, this is almost a non issue and the one or two runs I can recall that did have a dethl stairs death weren't exactly top times and I really don't feel that letting that particular runner keeping their PB wouldn't compromise the leaderboards in any way. However it feels weird and wrong to invalidate runs of one category and not another, so there's that.

Although I don't feel the end timing is (or has been) much of an issue other than any%, having an exact 'end point' has no disadvantages and you should fully go aheaad with that plan Mab

Basing the timing off of a hidden flag that switches scenes isnt going to be practical - it needs to be a discrete visual cue. I'm in favor of the screen fading to white. It can't invalidate older runs due to people not mashing through the credits, and should be measurable to within a couple frames if necessary.

giuocob wrote

Basing the timing off of a hidden flag that switches scenes isnt going to be practical - it needs to be a discrete visual cue. I'm in favor of the screen fading to white. It can't invalidate older runs due to people not mashing through the credits, and should be measurable to within a couple frames if necessary.

Yeah, when I looked at the address $DB95 it seems that the fadeout is caused because the byte flips, which isn't really a good visual cue. I think I agree with timing to end right when screen fades to white, and I think all of us have come to that conclusion now. :)

So, let's recap, because there is going to be a weekly race tonight most likely:
* Timing does not end on stairs, but when screen is fully white after the fadeout into the final cutscene.
* Old runs will not be retimed because this is only a 1-2s time advantage, except in the case of the short Any%, which will be retimed.
* All old runs that died on stairs will be removed/invalidated due to the fact that they have not completed the game.

If there is a point of contention among any of these three, please speak your dues at your earliest convenience. Thanks!