Death on Stairs = Run is Invalid? Discuss.

All sounds good, but since this is a 2-3 second thing, is the sub 4:40 dream still real? I am talking about short any% of course.

Riddler wrote

All sounds good, but since this is a 2-3 second thing, is the sub 4:40 dream still real? I am talking about short any% of course.

I don't know about the sub-440 anymore. :( Any% is hella tight right now.
Also, I'd want this timing change to apply to original LA Any% as well.

mabdulra wrote

I don't know about the sub-440 anymore. :( Any% is hella tight right now.
Also, I'd want this timing change to apply to original LA Any% as well.

Well sub 4:40 might be dead, but the fade out takes how long? 3 seconds? I'll look into it to see the timing.

mabdulra wrote

I don't know about the sub-440 anymore. :( Any% is hella tight right now.
Also, I'd want this timing change to apply to original LA Any% as well.

By all means add it, I'm completely on board.

Okay sooo, has the jury reached a verdict ?

I would also vote for time to end when the screen fades white, because then you'll reach the credits no matter what. Seems like the best option to me.

Timing ends when screen turns completely to white.

Will old runs that died on stairs be invalidated? Let's finalize that decision, please.

I vote yes.

I also vote yes. Can't wait to run any% again Kappa  ;D

why would you even delete them, did you not learn anything from that other post? just deny new runs that die on stairs, i think that is just retarded.

1. Old runs with old rulesets stay in place. New runs after a certain date must adhere to new rules. This is specifically in regards to where timing ends, which is now at a slightly later point on the pure white screen fadeout into the final cutscene.
2. No retiming except for Any% in LA and LADX because of how short those runs are--the added time matters.
3. Old runs that died on stairs will not be deleted, but rather unverified. They will remain unverified.

Can we agree on this?

Die = Not reaching the end = Did not finish = Not legit. Period.

now this is something i will agree on.

Seems fair.

Tompa wrote

Die = Not reaching the end = Did not finish = Not legit. Period.

This is why I like the unverify option.
Unfortunately, the rules did allow stairs death in the past. I think our goal is to keep the documented history of runs as well, however. In future runs, death on stairs will not count as completion because of the new rules.

I vote to unverify any runs that had death on stairs, but not delete.

I agree that the old runs that died on the stairs should only be unverified. the runners didn't do anything wrong, as they couldn't foresee these changes, so deleting the runs wouldn't make sense.

Alright. We have decided then! The rules pages will be updated accordingly by Tompa.

oh jesus

I've got so many tabs open wrong thread

I went through and adjusted times for LA and LADX Any%.
For LADX the time added is about 2 seconds.
For LA the time added is about 6 seconds due to lag from having two copies of Dethyl.

I unverified runs that died on stairs for Any% as well as for All Instruments in LADX--at least for the current PBs of those runners. If you discover a verified run that did die on stairs please let me know and I'll unverify it.

As of February 21, 2015 and on, the ruleset will require timing to end on white screen. The official rules on the site haven't updated yet, but they will soon. If you find any page outside the leaderboards that has inconsistencies, please let me know and I will get around to fixing those as well.

mabdulra wrote

1. Old runs with old rulesets stay in place. New runs after a certain date must adhere to new rules. This is specifically in regards to where timing ends, which is now at a slightly later point on the pure white screen fadeout into the final cutscene.
2. No retiming except for Any% in LA and LADX because of how short those runs are--the added time matters.
3. Old runs that died on stairs will not be deleted, but rather unverified. They will remain unverified.

I know the thing has already been decided, but I just wanted to say that just not verifying runs didn't come into my mind. Now I just agree with everyone saying that this is the best option.

did we ever agreed to time on white screen?

mabdulra wrote

As of February 21, 2015 and on, the ruleset will require timing to end on white screen. The official rules on the site haven't updated yet, but they will soon. If you find any page outside the leaderboards that has inconsistencies, please let me know and I will get around to fixing those as well.

I have no problem with the death on stairs meaning you have not "finished" the game and thus the run would be "dead" (unless the player continues the game and then finishes the play through with a non death).  I for one don't really like the new timing.  Most speed games the timing ends on the last user input.  For LA the last input would be when you touch the stairs (the old timing method).  I personally like this timing because it is very clear to the runner when time stops.  Yes it sucks if they stop time and then they end up dying and having to rerun the final fight... but runs can be retimed. 

I personally have been using this new method of "fade to white" and I feel like there is not a hard and fast timing in my head of when to hit STOP.  Before I could take my hand off the controller and if Link kept chugging up the stairs, I knew I was good.  Yes, it may be easy when watching it with a frame advance to see exactly the last full white frame and to see it's exactly XYZ seconds.  I still think that it is a confusing place to stop time.

TL DR:
Death on stairs = dead run. I approve.
Timing on white fade.  I disapprove.
Timing on stair touch.  I approve.

oseabass wrote

Most speed games the timing ends on the last user input.  For LA the last input would be when you touch the stairs (the old timing method).

I might be a bit fussy but IMO the true last input is the last dialogue with the wind fish. I know you obviously finished the game there, but if you don't pass the texts, you theoretically never reach the credits.

Though since we stipulated that reaching the last dialogue clearly means that we finished the game, I guess the white fade is the best compromise.

aulos wrote

I might be a bit fussy but IMO the true last input is the last dialogue with the wind fish. I know you obviously finished the game there, but if you don't pass the texts, you theoretically never reach the credits.

Though since we stipulated that reaching the last dialogue clearly means that we finished the game, I guess the white fade is the best compromise.

Agreed. I am more for ending at the appearance of the instruments, but that's not really possible given this game's prior history. So I am more for the white screen. I don't like the idea of "validating" after they've been completed (if that statement makes sense).

i approve for runs that died on the stairs to be invalid, but i sure dont approve this new timing.

My main issue was just the dying on stairs part, so as long as we agree on that I don't really have any real preference as to where we stop timing.  White screen seems like a decent compromise as peoples opinion on where to stop the timer seems somewhat varied.

To the people that dislike the new timing, what do you propose?

i liked the timing to be on the stairs, if runs that died were just not going to be verified that's fine, but changing it doesnt really fix anything at all, its the same thing lol.

Deln wrote

i liked the timing to be on the stairs, if runs that died were just not going to be verified that's fine, but changing it doesnt really fix anything at all, its the same thing lol.

I like the timing on stairs cus I'm used to it and it feels natural.  I can see white screen fade introducing "variance" in timings.

Since we officially changed the timing, I think a retiming of all old No S&Q runs is in order too.