Discussing Possible Topics for Change

Marinsgloryhole wrote

I hope you understand that this post directly contradicts your prior statement decisively 'banning' the trick

You can run the game however you want and get a time.  No one is stopping anyone from running the game how they enjoy... hell I did a category with some people to Save the Guy as fast as we could.  If you want to time a run with the current ruleset but use Walrus Skip, no one is stopping you.  But as far as "legally" submitting it, I don't think it would get verified as the rules are now (people don't want it).

While there are those who don't want the trick due to them not liking walrus skip, there are still those of us who don't want it because of it's possibility of being an OoB. I have no issues with hard tricks, or rng tricks being in runs...I run oracle of ages lol..The point is to play how you want to play, which is why there is categories, for basic rules on the runs, but you can still play however you want.

If walrus skip were added, there would be those who use it, and I'm sure there would be those who don't, just due to the volatility it adds to the run, which is the same thing that happens in Oracle of Ages with the D2 skip. Even though the D2 skip saves upwards of 7 minutes on the run, some people still don't use it because they don't want to waste 25 minutes to reset repeatedly due to a trick not working.
Although the tricks themselves aren't really comparable, the feeling runners get when presented with a trick that can end your run like that completely is the same.

You can rule whatever you want on the trick's usability and validity in the main category, but I still think this trick needs to be looked into for different setups, and most importantly the reasoning as to why PoP can get you out of the sprite, but normal walking can't when they're in the exact same position. It makes it tough to call whether it's OoB or not when you don't know if you're stuck because you're inside the sprite due to OoB, or just an unfortunate circumstance that PoP helps you overcome.

I guess we just need a consensus on the matter for now until more information is brought to light? Either way I'm fine whether it's allowed or disallowed; it doesn't become a requirement for the run if you're running because you enjoy running this game.

Just as a technical note, I presume the reason PoP gets you out is just from slightly lazy collision detection programming. The game will check if your position + your current speed is a walkable spot, and if it is, you'll be allowed to move. Since PoP increases your speed, your position + your speed can just barely reach walkable terrain. I'm not sure if that really helps telling if it's an OoB or not, but then that doesn't seem to be the focus of discussion here.

I do think at this point we just need to make a decision, so I approve of the Bass Has Spoken train, though since I'm kinda attached to walrus skip (as I found the setup) I'd definitely like for it to be allowed at least in S+Q. At the end of the day, LA/DX's main categories' rules are pretty darned arbitrary already.

I'll add my 2 cents to the matter, but feel free to ignore it since as I said the important thing is just to agree on something.

I don't entirely like the thought that we can basically change the category's rules on-the-fly to comply with what the runners like - I always preferred to focus on how we can push the game, rather than what the most "fun" route would be. I guess this is a consequence of me mostly running any% routes in games - I like the idea of any% more, but then some games like this one are broken to an insane extent so it becomes relatively trivial. Ideally, from my point of view, when any% is broken like this we'd make a set of rules which are as simple and unlimiting as possible, while still leaving most of the gameplay more or less... intact. However in some speedgames, like this one (imo), it doesn't quite work out that way - focus remains more on the most fun route. To me, the rules are vague, and... they're prone to changing.

Now, I know not everyone sees things the same way, and I'm not going to push for a kind of rule change that would fit better with this pov. But this is mainly the reason I'm not terribly comfortable with the situation.

Ultimately, though, Bass Has Spoken.

Drenn wrote

I don't entirely like the thought that we can basically change the category's rules on-the-fly to comply with what the runners like - I always preferred to focus on how we can push the game, rather than what the most "fun" route would be.

This is why I'm justifying the decision with "it's an OOB and thus is banned" for No S+Q. I am glad Bass Has Spoken (and streamed) because I think the community needed that to keep going for the main categories. The volume of runs has decreased after the discovery of Walrus Skip mostly because nobody knew what the rules were. I'm glad that we have some decision now, so people can continue to run.

It sounds like Drenn that you should definitely stick with S+Q, and maybe even go to OG LA to use Magic Rod for maximum deloading funtimes.

Damn. I come back and Bass Has Spoken. I'm glad we came to a conclusion and I think I'll begin runs again soon, because as mab said, i havent run because I wasn't sure of the rules.

What happened to the talks on the smaller tricks up for review? The OoB stuff that largely doesn't make sense to ban while Villa Skip is allowed

LoenP wrote

What happened to the talks on the smaller tricks up for review? The OoB stuff that largely doesn't make sense to ban while Villa Skip is allowed

I think now that the Walrus in the room has been addressed, we can start to tackle these other ones like Frog Song, Lvl 2 Bracelet Skip, Flame Skip 2.0, etc.  I have no problem continuing to discuss those and have started another thread trying to document all the tricks and glitches we know of.  This way, we can have more information and make better informed decisions as a community.

oseabass wrote

these other ones like Frog Song, Lvl 2 Bracelet Skip, Flame Skip 2.0, etc.

To me those are all definitely OoB, as you literally enter wall blocks and stuff. Definitely more so than walrus skip, so I don't see their validity in main category being a thing.

As for Villa Skip, I don't see it as OoB because you don't actually enter a block, you trick the game into making you fall by transitioning into a screen with solid objects, therefore falling past all the solid object instead of through them like you would with OoB. But there is the question if after you make it into the maze and fall on that first screen, that you respawn inside the top bush, because I consider that OoB, but the game put you there because you screwed up, you didn't try to get into that OoB, so I dunno how to interpret that in terms of following the rule.
Like should a run be invalid if you accidentally fall into a pit on that first screen of the villa skip maze and respawn inside the bush?

@Disclude
Yes, spawning in the bush would defnitely be OoB in my opinion too, but falling down the hole clearly wastes time. You don't use that OoB to your advantage or even intend to do that.

SurrealGuy wrote

@Disclude
Yes, spawning in the bush would defnitely be OoB in my opinion too, but falling down the hole clearly wastes time. You don't use that OoB to your advantage or even intend to do that.

In No S+Q you may accidentally perform a S+Q. It might not save time and is definitely not your intention, but it is not allowed in the category.
In D7 you may accidentally enter the room after the mini boss by jumping and will go all over the map. It's not intended, but it's not allowed in the category.

These were things that were noted very heavily to new runners of the game to ensure they don't do. Just because it was unintentional doesn't mean it should be allowed. If we think that falling into the hole and landing on the grass during Villa Skip constitutes an OOB then we ban it and alert every runner, especially new runners, to pay extra attention during that part of the run.

That is assuming we define it as OOB.

oseabass wrote

I think now that the Walrus in the room has been addressed, we can start to tackle these other ones like Frog Song, Lvl 2 Bracelet Skip, Flame Skip 2.0, etc.

While I don't know much about the technical side of this game as others do, these tricks just feel.. off to me. And not in a way where I don't like them or don't want to do them, they just look so unnatural that I'd have a hard time believing that they're not out of bounds.

But like I said, someone could tell me otherwise with the correct technical proof and I'd buy into it.

Level 2 bracelet skip: for me that is OOB, you clip inside of a wall.

Flame skip 2.0: it does feel like it is an OOB(you walk through a wall and can even get stuck in it).

frog song skip: you do clip through a block, so it does sound like its OOB to me.

Of course they're out of bounds. The actual discussion was about possibly allowing the more minor instances of it into the main route, or if there was interest in consolidating the the categories to add for one that did allow them since the OoB moveset in particular is completely unutilized in any of the current categories.

Here's something different, and I want to know the community input on it.

This was something found on Drenn's stream a while back: If you die, and on the death screen you choose "Save & Quit," your menu cursor stays in the same spot. This cursor will stay in the same spot even if you erase the file and start a new one. In theory, if someone wanted to save a few (2) inputs, he or she could get a file, move the equipment screen cursor somewhere else, and then start a new run. (I can see me doing this for the first equip in D1, which is one I "commonly" mess up).

Since the memory isn't "re-initialized," is this run still valid?  This trick is not very useful, but something I've been pondering.


[FYI: The menu only resets upon S&Q and resets, as far as I know]

ZorlaxSeven wrote

Here's something different, and I want to know the community input on it.

This was something found on Drenn's stream a while back: If you die, and on the death screen you choose "Save & Quit," your menu cursor stays in the same spot. This cursor will stay in the same spot even if you erase the file and start a new one. In theory, if someone wanted to save a few (2) inputs, he or she could get a file, move the equipment screen cursor somewhere else, and then start a new run. (I can see me doing this for the first equip in D1, which is one I "commonly" mess up).

Since the memory isn't "re-initialized," is this run still valid?  This trick is not very useful, but something I've been pondering.


[FYI: The menu only resets upon S&Q and resets, as far as I know]

Lol, how diabolical. I don't see any reason not to allow it, though due to how annoying it would be for resets I imagine most people wouldn't bother doing it. Anyway it can easily be done on accident (like I did), so it doesn't seem like it should be disallowed.

Interestingly though, this wouldn't be possible under JRTA rules since you need to reset the console.

I think this video is super relevant to this thread: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94OlfZkRp4k

Basically shaq jumping is super-broken now. It would be super cool to have a category using this and more oob tricks, but now I'm definitely less inclined to see a main category with oob tricks :P

There already kinda exists a category that is No WW(allows OoB).

In theory its neat to think about a category that would allow all these cool out of bounds tricks, but really the route just becomes one out of bounds jump after d2 that sends you into the nightmare room so none of the tech is really there because the run is only 20 minutes long.

That and the game has a chance of randomly crashing once you enter the nightmare room, which just makes it incredibly not fun to run.

Flynn wrote

There already kinda exists a category that is No WW(allows OoB).

In theory its neat to think about a category that would allow all these cool out of bounds tricks, but really the route just becomes one out of bounds jump after d2 that sends you into the nightmare room so none of the tech is really there because the run is only 20 minutes long.

That and the game has a chance of randomly crashing once you enter the nightmare room, which just makes it incredibly not fun to run.

I'm aware of that category, though I'm thinking of something more along the lines of tompa's definition of "no wrong warp". Where you can't transition between cave systems that shouldn't be connected, so you still need to do all the dungeons. Could be interesting.

Agreed with Drenn 100% in that Tompa's definition of OoB is a lot better. The use of the transition to the Windfish Egg at the end of the current no WW route diminishes the interest and enjoyability of the run a lot, imo. Sticking to only allowing shaq jumping where you cannot use it to transition between dungeons and cave systems that aren't meant to be connected leaves the route as a much more interesting playthrough and puts it in a more unique time span (for LADX categories anyway) of around 30-45 minutes?

I'd actually be really interested in seeing what this category could look like then

For anyone watching this topic, I made a post in the superjump thread with new proposed rules based on a lot of the discussion I read here.
http://forums.zeldaspeedruns.com/index.php?topic=1845.msg30512#msg30512