"not allowed to do a screen transition between any 2 spots that shouldn't be connected". However if we did that, villa skip would pretty much be gone... it would solve the problem of the more game-breaking super jumps though.
That's along the lines that I was thinking. I came to the same realization for villa skip. I dunno if there's a way around that..the only thing I can think of it that it's not walking in a wall at all, which more so lends it self to the OoB rule...I'd love to find a way to do it without getting rid of villa skip, just so it doesn't screw over normal runs..Argh, run rule definitions are a pain @.@
Okay so I'm going to try to define something new, I am sorry if my English is too poor for that kind of thing. Anyway:
What does (should) mean an Out of Bound in this game? Standing or walking on pixels we should not be able to reach within the intended restrictions of the game. This game allows us to walk in certain solid objects by three pixels or less, and this annoys us because of new tricks found, aka Walrus skip, Super Jumping. It even gives us troubles about the Villa Skip. Also, a lot of people want to change the term/principle of OoBs.
I might be completely wrong, but this, even if Link stands in a wall by more than three pixels let me think about something: should we really turn a run down because of this?
That's why I suggest to replace Out of Bounds by something like Out of Area (yeah I know it's pretty much the same word).
What would be the restrictions of an OoA then ? Well, that would allow every movement possibility within a room by only considering the very walls, but without being able to go to another screen through walls, and consequently by walking on ceilings.
That would for instance allow the D6 Nightmare Key Super Jump but disallow the one to the Boss room. Here is an example. Red tiles being tiles through which you cannot screen transition. Also this would mean no old Marin Skip and no old Frog Song skip.
As far as I thought about it, that would allow most of the Super Jumps Flynn showed in his video, but disallow others like the fast D4 Nightmare Key showed in Emura's video.
If I'm completely out of it, well, just tell me :P Also if someone likes the idea, any help would be great to redefine it correctly!
I do like that idea aullos. From the options presented so far I think that would work best for our purposes. I'm not entirely sure how to put this into words though, the image seems to describe the concept better. As I understand it, cave ceilings would be off-limits, which means we can't do the shaq jump to reach d4 faster?
Maybe something like "no out of area / out of bounds means you cannot clip past the outermost boundaries of any given room". I dunno, the image still describes the concept better.
The accompanying "no wrong warp" definition can be much the same as it is now - simply restricting doghouse, screenwarping, etc, without an additional restriction saying where you can or cannot screen transition.
This isn't a rules post (I'll make one in a bit) but I think I noticed something that allows the Super Jump to work and may narrow down figuring out the reason for why and how this glitch is caused? The one thing I have noticed is that of the three items that you're able to utilize this with (Sword, Magic Rod, Bow) they have the common trait in allowing link to change the direction he's facing while in a jump, which is something that with any other item, or without using any item, is disallowed. Something about this may mess with the collision detection of the game when in dungeon areas? I know people were into looking into why this only occurs in dungeons and cave networks and not in the overworld, so maybe this will help?
I'm bad a hunting and solving glitch things so if this is a dumb observation let me know.
I really, really, really like Aullos' description and idea of OoB. Maybe add a caveat to better explain disallowing using OoB that let's you transition in to a screen from another that wasn't intended?
This is a really poor way to explain what I'm trying to describe, all I'm trying to say is I really like Aullos' definition.
EDIT: Anyway I was originally posting to say that I feel a more narrow definition of superjumps and where they lay might be deserved since I feel the trick is very, very versatile and needs to be defined in a way that isn't 'a super jump is a super jump.' The trick can be utilized to shave anywhere from over half an hour (the previous No WW category used by rapid and leafeonz) or likely around just a minute depending on the scope of your definition and usage and that a break up of different classes of definitions may be warranted here. That's just my thoughts, though.
This isn't a rules post (I'll make one in a bit) but I think I noticed something that allows the Super Jump to work and may narrow down figuring out the reason for why and how this glitch is caused? The one thing I have noticed is that of the three items that you're able to utilize this with (Sword, Magic Rod, Bow) they have the common trait in allowing link to change the direction he's facing while in a jump, which is something that with any other item, or without using any item, is disallowed. Something about this may mess with the collision detection of the game when in dungeon areas? I know people were into looking into why this only occurs in dungeons and cave networks and not in the overworld, so maybe this will help?
I'm bad a hunting and solving glitch things so if this is a dumb observation let me know.
Does the super jump not work in overworld areas? If this is the case, I think the reason would just be because of the types of tiles the game uses. Super jumping works when you do it off of a tile which you can jump down from. The overworld does have some tiles like this, but they work differently. They trigger a different kind of falling state, a la villa skip. So this is probably why it doesn't work in the overworld...
Upon further examination, though, I've found a place where it works in the overworld. That cliff near dungeon 3. It's the same kind of tile as is used in underground sections. It's just not used very often in the overworld.
I'm completely fine with image 1 as running through my mind the cave systems in the game and ways the jump can be used I can't think of anything that would be an issue, since the main thing we have issues with would be using that super jump to transition while on top of the ceiling which you have covered. If it's being used merely as a way to bypass obstacles on that screen and then hop back down (without transitioning), I'm fine with it.
That's my take on it anyway, as I feel cave ceilings are a tricky area to decide on.
I have to say caves give me a bit of trouble. I do hesitate between this and this.
I guess my first thought was "can't walk on ceilings" since in my opinion those walls are the "outermost boundaries".
What do you think about it ?
I think the second one makes more sense. I think the walls count as the outermost boundaries, even if they aren't very far out :) but then you don't have to use my wording. I understand that walking on cave ceilings may not be a big deal, as long as you don't transition afterwards, but the first image just feels like an arbitrary line to draw to me.
I intended more to clarify the idea of "don't go to another screen by there" than "you can't walk on these very tiles".
Okay, fair enough... In this case it starts to look like my previous idea for "no wrong warp" where you can't transition between 2 spots that shouldn't be connected. Not quite the same, however, because I think this way would allow villa skip... perhaps the wording would look something like "can't do a screen transition while outside of normal game boundaries". I still like the idea of image 2 better, but maybe that's just because I have a better grasp on what the rules would look like in that case.
Also I think I just realized how they patched super jumping. You know how you can jump down a cliff while in midair? They don't let you do that in v1.2. That's how they fixed it. Did they know? :O
it starts to look like my previous idea for "no wrong warp" where you can't transition between 2 spots that shouldn't be connected.
I think the main difference is from the way of doing it. Your idea forbids screen transitions like the D8 to Egg one, as mine forbids the specific ones as in the picture or the Shaq Jump before Flame Fountain.
I think the main difference is from the way of doing it. Your idea forbids screen transitions like the D8 to Egg one, as mine forbids the specific ones as in the picture or the Shaq Jump before Flame Fountain.
I find that this picture says "Let's bend the rules in this specific place because it'll be faster" I personally do not feel that superjumping onto the ceilings in caves should be allowed, as you stated "You cannot exit the bounds of the room you are in" as "OoA".
My opinion is that you should not be able to exit the main bounds of the screen (cannot go completely over walls that have no real ground on the adjacent side[like the one in d6]) This is a tricky subject to figure out and that's why we have to define OoB :p
According to Flynn's picture of D6, that would allow another Superjump. I just made a quick video of that. This would save about 10-12 seconds over playing Mambo after getting the Nightmares Key. http://www.twitch.tv/surrealguy/c/6366053 We would have to decide if youre allowed to stand in any wall. Because to me it would make no sense to allow the D6 jump i just posted, but youre not allowed to stand in a wall on the border of a screen (which would also allow the alternate Rooster skip method then).
Edit: Ok, you have to walk on the ceiling for alternate Rooster skip, which is another thing we have to decide. Edit2: I should read more carefully.
I think it's okay ? I mean, even if you can walk through walls, you can't go to another screen through them and I don't know if it would be worth to get the glitch for that (maybe someone should try to make a route?)
I think it's okay ? I mean, even if you can walk through walls, you can't go to another screen through them and I don't know if it would be worth to get the glitch for that (maybe someone should try to make a route?)
FYI this can also be done in d4 and d8 (swimming in lava). It can also be done in certain caves without wall clipping, but it's inconsistent. I dunno... I really think this is just too powerful to allow, even if we have all these other restrictions in place. It's just really silly.
And for the record, I agree with flynn and everyone else, about the boundaries restricting cave ceilings, I think this makes the most sense.
As for walrus skip. Yes aullos's rules totally allows for it. If there's still going to be any debate over whether it should be allowed, it should be on the basis of banning deloading, instead of trying to warp the OoB definition to say that walrus skip isn't allowed. Not that I personally think we should ban deloading.
If anyone has any specific jumps that they've found and are not sure if they would be legal by this new ruleset feel free to post them here. Even if we have to rule on these one by one it wouldn't take too long till we have a very concrete list of what is allowed and what is not.
I have to say tho, I'm liking the direction this is going. I feel these are really interesting additions to the route. It's been a really long time since ive been excited to watch a dx run, but im real pumped to see what happens in the next week or so.
Forgive me in advance for the length of this post, but I will try and explain how I think the rules should be laid out to allow/disallow what we want. Sorry in advance for the complexity of this post, I blame my math/programmer/proof background, also I apologize for my lame MS Paint Skillz.
I am also going to explain how the game is programmed in terms of tiles, so that could be VERY confusing to some people. If you want to get right to the "rules" skip down to the big RULES ARE HERE section ;)
*clears throat* Ahem *clears throat*
First I will start by defining "tiles". Tiles are the basic level building mechanic in LA(dx). Each screen is made up of a grid of tiles that is 10 across x 8 tall. Take for example this room in dungeon 8 where one gets the fire rod, Original image If you break it up into a grid, think of it like a chess board (not square) with the bottom left corner being A1, bottom right corner J1, top left A8, top right J8. You can also think of it like a plot on an X,Y graph if you want with tile (1,1) being in the bottom left, (10,1) bottom right, (10,8) top right, (1,8) top left. I will be using the "graph" style notation since it's easier to deal with numbers then letters ;). Original image For a better grid look at how BGB splits it up when you view the VRAM, each 2x2 box counts as one "tile", but take note that this shows one extra row down to account for when the screen is transitioning. Original image
Original image The way the game is coded, looking in the debugger of an emulator you can see this grid laid out in RAM by looking in the rows/values of F700 through F790. The grid is surrounded by "FF" which is the highest hex code value that can fit in those spaces (or what the developers used as a buffer). Each tile is programmed/painted onto the screen using a corresponding hex code to determine the properties of that tile. For instance in our D8 room, the walls/look/art/hit detection/interaction/everything is the same on the wall squares. If we look at the very top row (row 8) we see the following tiles from left to right: C0, 25, 6 x 21's 26, C0 (10 across). These hex codes map directly to a tile and how it works: Eyeball Statue, TopLeft Corner D8 Wall, Top D8 Wall x6, TopRight Corner D8 Wall, Eyeball Statue. These values are used throughout the ENTIRE game because that is how the code is attached to them. For instance look at the down stairs at (3,4) with a hex code of BE, in every location in the game a down stairs is represented in memory with that same BE code. I could paste a bunch of screen shots showing this but that is crazy tedious so you just have to trust me on this one or check it out yourself :)
These codes are what give Link the ability to act within the tiles they represent. Tiles that the game wants Link to move on have those properties. Walls the game wants Link to not move through have that property. Trees in the overworld... you get the idea. The tiles in dungeons are special versus the ones in the overworld, which explains a bit why the super jumps work in dungeons and not in overworld (most of the time ;)).
In our D8 example look at the walls that act as "northern" walls represented by "21" in the hex code, you see them at the top row 8, you see some of them in row 5, some in row 2. Since the game is built in dungeons so that these walls can normally be "hopped down" the programmers re use the coding for the high walls the same as low walls, so the wall at (2,2) (3,2) has the same properties as (2,5) through (5,5). The programmers wanted Link to be able to drop down those ledges to make it to the lower sections. This allows super jumps off the top most wall in row 8 because the programmers lazily used the same wall code (for look and feel and ease of coding) with the same hex value as the walls in row 2 and 5. This is why Link can super jump off certain tiles. In most dungeons the programmers used this same method since a lot of the dungeon puzzles involve dropping down to lower sections. In the overworld they shut everything off a lot more by making it blocked off a lot better with more varying codes.
I could go into a lot more detail and proofing of this, but for now I'll get to the good part. If anyone wants me to do a more legit and full breakdown of this I could gladly do a big pastebin/write up for all the tiles, properties, etc. with more examples. Feel free to PM/message/skype/etc me with questions and clarifications on this.
RULES ARE HERE
Using the D8 grid as a quick example then I'll show other examples further down... Original image
Link is allowed to move within tiles that the game "normally" allows
This means any normal tiles the game wants you to walk on (ground, stairs, ladders, orange crystal blocks) {(2,1) (3,1) (5,1) (7/8,1) (5,2) (7,2) (8,2) (9,2) (2,3) (3,3) (4,3) (8,3) (2,4) (3,4) (4,4) (5,4) (7,4) (8,4) (9,4) (7,5) (8,5) (9,5) (2,6) (3,6) (4,6) (5,6) (8,6) (3,7) (5,7) (6,7) (7,7) (8,7)}
Link is allowed to move within tiles that are "+1/-1 Adjacent" in the X or Y direction away from "normal" tiles.
This is the crux of the rule which allows super jumping. This means any tile that is directly adjacent to a moveable "normal" can be walked in/on/through/etc. In our D8 example it is easier to say what is not a "+1/-1 Adjacent" since a lot of tiles are. The D8 room tiles that are NOT +1/-1 (or "normals"): (10,1) (1,2) (6,3) (10,3) (1,5) (10,6) (1,7) (10,7) (1,8) (2,8) (9,8) (10,8). I'll so better examples below of this later.
Link is not allowed to transition/move/exit screens while within a "+1/-1 Adjacent" tile. Entering from one is OK!
This makes it so tricks like super jumps cannot be abused to break caves, dungeons, and such wide open in terms of movement in weird ways. This keeps all super jumps in check, and also allows for internal tile movement within a screen allowed by rules (Walrus Skip, Hookshot Damage boost throughs, etc.)
Original imageOriginal image Let's take a look at another example. In Dungeon 4 we find this room. Link can move around in this room at will on normal tiles and tiles outlined in blue, but not allowed to move on red tiles. Link is not allowed to transition screens while within a blue tile. This means if there was in theory a jump that allowed Link to move from the bottom section, jump over the gap of red, to the top with the stairs... Link could exit the room from the "normal" tiles in the top left NOT EXITING FROM A BLUE TILE.
Original imageOriginal imageOriginal image I'll finish with one final example in the overworld, up near where Flame Skip occurs. Again, "+1/-1 Adjacent" tiles are highlighted in blue and the non "+1/-1 Adjacent" tiles are highlighted in red. The Yellow tiles are ones we normally don't walk to, but Link is allowed to move on them through the normal rules of the game. If Link were to somehow make it to a yellow tile, Link would be allowed to exit this screen to the left through that small window (NOT EXITING FROM A BLUE TILE). If Link manages to do this, the next screen over would boost him to the left and past the rock wall he normally could not pass similar to Villa Skip. This would be allowed, since the movement/exit/transition of the screen happened within a valid "normal" tile. If Link were to exit the previous screen from an invalid tile, this move is illegal. This still allows Villa Skip within this rule set, since Link can jump into the pit that is above the skip, which makes it a "normal" tile. Link is transitioning from a tile that he can MOVE on. I say MOVE here because it is important to note MOVING does not mean WALKING. Link can jump to move in the Villa Skip example.
Cool post bass. The one thing I'm not clear on is the yellow zone. So, we're allowed to walk on any tile which has walkable properties, even if it's normally inaccessible without some kind of glitch? To be clear, this would allow the super jump to reach d4 faster. I'm okay with that, just trying to make sure we're on the same page...
edit: actually, I don't see any reason you can't screen transition while in a cave ceiling with these rules, if they count as a "yellow" zone. So wouldn't this allow for old walrus skip?
Quote
Let's take a look at another example. In Dungeon 4 we find this room. Link can move around in this room at will on normal tiles and tiles outlined in blue, but not allowed to move on red tiles. Link is not allowed to transition screens while within a blue tile. This means if there was in theory a jump that allowed Link to move from the bottom section, jump over the gap of red, to the top with the stairs... Link could exit the room from the "normal" tiles in the top left NOT EXITING FROM A BLUE TILE.
Wait, so we'd be allowed to jump over these red tiles? For some reason I feel like that defeats the purpose of saying they're restricted. However, unless we allow that noclipping glitch, I don't see where this would be relevant, anyway.
I haven't thought about this a great deal yet, however... I feel like the routing would look pretty similar if we dropped the whole +1/-1 thing and allowed movement through whatever walls, the only restriction being "you can't transition while in a wall". Maybe I'm missing something though. Nvm cave ceilings
edit: actually, I don't see any reason you can't screen transition while in a cave ceiling with these rules, if they count as a "yellow" zone. So wouldn't this allow for old walrus skip?
If you look at the D4 early cave it would be colored like this. I am not familiar with the old early walrus skips, if you have a video I can look at it and see how my rule set would apply to it (or not). The Yellow is basically a fancy way of bringing attention to areas for people for easy reference :). In this above example, you could say Yellow is anything "normal" moveable, which would be everything NOT blue or red colored. If you can post a video of old WS I can check it out and get back to you.
If you look at the D4 early cave it would be colored like this. I am not familiar with the old early walrus skips, if you have a video I can look at it and see how my rule set would apply to it (or not). The Yellow is basically a fancy way of bringing attention to areas for people for easy reference :). In this above example, you could say Yellow is anything "normal" moveable, which would be everything NOT blue or red colored. If you can post a video of old WS I can check it out and get back to you.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, why is the cave ceiling colored red while that area in the other image is colored yellow? What's the difference?
Can't find a video for old walrus skip atm, all I know is it's done by transitioning down on one of those 2 screens in the cave.
What do you mean by "normal"; do you mean what was and is intended by the developers, or what you defined as "normal" in your post regarding the rules? If it is the latter then it would be perfectly fine to walk around on those tiles as they are used in other caves.
