SJs sure, noclips sure; I dont really care, I just want categories to change.
Is it known that you can do super jumps off of walls without clipping in some areas?
It isn't consistent and I don't really understand why it sometimes works and sometimes doesn't.. but I made a quick vid to show:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTg0YUyOuPQ
It isn't consistent and I don't really understand why it sometimes works and sometimes doesn't.. but I made a quick vid to show:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTg0YUyOuPQ
Last edited 28 Mar 2015, 20:12 by greentunic.
Is it known that you can do super jumps off of walls without clipping in some areas?
It isn't consistent and I don't really understand why it sometimes works and sometimes doesn't.. but I made a quick vid to show:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTg0YUyOuPQ
It should be consistent as long as you do not walk diagonally(EmuraloZ says this in his video description), but wall clipping works regardless.
Yes, Greentunic. It can also be done without the sword. When doing it without a wall, it depends more on the subpixels, which basically means the timing is more precise for how long you should hold backwards and when you should move forwards.
Ah okay thanks for explaining Rapid and Tompa :)
I have looked at a few areas to try and make use of not having to be clipped but am yet to see anything that would save much time in a run.
I have looked at a few areas to try and make use of not having to be clipped but am yet to see anything that would save much time in a run.
We should finally settle this.
I'm saying yes to superjumps, no to the no clipping thing.
Although i'd love to see a run, where all of the new tech is allowed (walrus skip, SJs, walking on ceiling, no clipping etc as long as it doesnt wrong warp).
I'm saying yes to superjumps, no to the no clipping thing.
Although i'd love to see a run, where all of the new tech is allowed (walrus skip, SJs, walking on ceiling, no clipping etc as long as it doesnt wrong warp).
I've stated my opinion here, and based on things I've read, and my own opinions, I vote yes for super jumps, and no for 'no clip' glitch; as of right now at least.
I vote YES for SJ's, NO for no-clips.
Hi everyone
Sorry to disrupt the voting, but I'd like to add my thoughts based on my reading of the superjump and rule change threads. Since the most recent discussion is in here, this is where I'm posting. Sorry, this is a little long...
To me, there are 4 obvious rulesets for All Instruments (which this category should really be called):
1) Doghouse
2) Warps allowed (+ OoB + sq)
3) OoB allowed (+ sq)
4) Warpless (no OoB, no sq)
These names are familiar, but I dont think the current "main category" fits any of them.
1) Doghouse - This category allows you to enter a state where Link doesn't interact with the tiles/sprites/game in a normal way. This category already exists as "any% (all instruments)".
2) Warps + OoB - This category lets you warp between dungeons and between unconnected areas of caves. Essentially you can move around wherever you want by getting OoB, but can't enter the broken doghouse state. Rapid's 1:04 run fits into this category. I also think no-clip fits here, as it also lets you move freely, but in the overworld. Screen warping LA also goes here.
3) OoB - This category is based on Tompa's post on warping from the other thread. Going OoB (like on the ceiling in caves) is okay here as long as you stay within the set of screens you are supposed to travel through (i.e. no warping). Getting to D4 through the tunnel is okay here, as is rooster-skip skip using superjumps. This is where superjumps, villa skip, and mirror shield skip 2.0 belong.
4) Warpless (no sq) - Here, you can't go where you're not supposed to go. This category could also be called legacy or maybe glitchless, I guess. No superjumps, no jesus jumps, no villa skip. I think wall clipping is okay here so moblin skip, mirror shield skip, rooster skip, turtle rock skip, and sideways block pushing can stay. I actually hope that we add deathless to this ruleset as well (i.e. buy the shovel) for true legacy%.
I think these rules add some consistency and, IMHO, give a good place for the various tricks to go. The problem is that the current "main category" lives between rulesets 3 and 4 (well, essentially a legal, but very unoptimized ruleset 3). However, I think it would be easy for runners to add a few new techniques (including s+q) to move into ruleset 3, or to drop some skips and move into ruleset 4. Hopefully people will do both, since the bulk of the game is similar :)
P.S. Any% only gets rulesets 1-2, since if you're not warping or doghouse-ing, you have to get all instruments to enter the egg and beat the game... right?
P.P.S 100% warpless would be pretty long... 100% as it currently stands could easily move into ruleset 3 by adding the same OoB and superjumps as AI. 100% warps + OoB would be really fun to route/play. 100% doghouse would be awful to route/play...
Sorry to disrupt the voting, but I'd like to add my thoughts based on my reading of the superjump and rule change threads. Since the most recent discussion is in here, this is where I'm posting. Sorry, this is a little long...
To me, there are 4 obvious rulesets for All Instruments (which this category should really be called):
1) Doghouse
2) Warps allowed (+ OoB + sq)
3) OoB allowed (+ sq)
4) Warpless (no OoB, no sq)
These names are familiar, but I dont think the current "main category" fits any of them.
1) Doghouse - This category allows you to enter a state where Link doesn't interact with the tiles/sprites/game in a normal way. This category already exists as "any% (all instruments)".
2) Warps + OoB - This category lets you warp between dungeons and between unconnected areas of caves. Essentially you can move around wherever you want by getting OoB, but can't enter the broken doghouse state. Rapid's 1:04 run fits into this category. I also think no-clip fits here, as it also lets you move freely, but in the overworld. Screen warping LA also goes here.
3) OoB - This category is based on Tompa's post on warping from the other thread. Going OoB (like on the ceiling in caves) is okay here as long as you stay within the set of screens you are supposed to travel through (i.e. no warping). Getting to D4 through the tunnel is okay here, as is rooster-skip skip using superjumps. This is where superjumps, villa skip, and mirror shield skip 2.0 belong.
4) Warpless (no sq) - Here, you can't go where you're not supposed to go. This category could also be called legacy or maybe glitchless, I guess. No superjumps, no jesus jumps, no villa skip. I think wall clipping is okay here so moblin skip, mirror shield skip, rooster skip, turtle rock skip, and sideways block pushing can stay. I actually hope that we add deathless to this ruleset as well (i.e. buy the shovel) for true legacy%.
I think these rules add some consistency and, IMHO, give a good place for the various tricks to go. The problem is that the current "main category" lives between rulesets 3 and 4 (well, essentially a legal, but very unoptimized ruleset 3). However, I think it would be easy for runners to add a few new techniques (including s+q) to move into ruleset 3, or to drop some skips and move into ruleset 4. Hopefully people will do both, since the bulk of the game is similar :)
P.S. Any% only gets rulesets 1-2, since if you're not warping or doghouse-ing, you have to get all instruments to enter the egg and beat the game... right?
P.P.S 100% warpless would be pretty long... 100% as it currently stands could easily move into ruleset 3 by adding the same OoB and superjumps as AI. 100% warps + OoB would be really fun to route/play. 100% doghouse would be awful to route/play...
Hi everyone
Sorry to disrupt the voting, but I'd like to add my thoughts based on my reading of the superjump and rule change threads. Since the most recent discussion is in here, this is where I'm posting. Sorry, this is a little long...
To me, there are 4 obvious rulesets for All Instruments (which this category should really be called):
1) Doghouse
2) Warps allowed (+ OoB + sq)
3) OoB allowed (+ sq)
4) Warpless (no OoB, no sq)
These names are familiar, but I dont think the current "main category" fits any of them.
1) Doghouse - This category allows you to enter a state where Link doesn't interact with the tiles/sprites/game in a normal way. This category already exists as "any% (all instruments)".
2) Warps + OoB - This category lets you warp between dungeons and between unconnected areas of caves. Essentially you can move around wherever you want by getting OoB, but can't enter the broken doghouse state. Rapid's 1:04 run fits into this category. I also think no-clip fits here, as it also lets you move freely, but in the overworld. Screen warping LA also goes here.
3) OoB - This category is based on Tompa's post on warping from the other thread. Going OoB (like on the ceiling in caves) is okay here as long as you stay within the set of screens you are supposed to travel through (i.e. no warping). Getting to D4 through the tunnel is okay here, as is rooster-skip skip using superjumps. This is where superjumps, villa skip, and mirror shield skip 2.0 belong.
4) Warpless (no sq) - Here, you can't go where you're not supposed to go. This category could also be called legacy or maybe glitchless, I guess. No superjumps, no jesus jumps, no villa skip. I think wall clipping is okay here so moblin skip, mirror shield skip, rooster skip, turtle rock skip, and sideways block pushing can stay. I actually hope that we add deathless to this ruleset as well (i.e. buy the shovel) for true legacy%.
I think these rules add some consistency and, IMHO, give a good place for the various tricks to go. The problem is that the current "main category" lives between rulesets 3 and 4 (well, essentially a legal, but very unoptimized ruleset 3). However, I think it would be easy for runners to add a few new techniques (including s+q) to move into ruleset 3, or to drop some skips and move into ruleset 4. Hopefully people will do both, since the bulk of the game is similar :)
P.S. Any% only gets rulesets 1-2, since if you're not warping or doghouse-ing, you have to get all instruments to enter the egg and beat the game... right?
P.P.S 100% warpless would be pretty long... 100% as it currently stands could easily move into ruleset 3 by adding the same OoB and superjumps as AI. 100% warps + OoB would be really fun to route/play. 100% doghouse would be awful to route/play...
I like this. However if we were to use this, noclip should be banned entirely; any run with noclip(warps + oob, the only category I'd care about :) ) allowed would be unfun to route/run(you'd just go to d4/d8 and get most of the instruments pretty much :/)
I couldn't agree more with Friedpotato. Very good post imho! :)
Thanks, SurrealGuy!
I was thinking more about this, and I agree that no-clip doesn't belong in ruleset "(2) - Warps + OoB". I originally thought about a 5th ruleset between 1 and 2 for no-clip and screen warping, but I though having 5 would overdo it. To be completely honest, I know very little about screen warping in LA, so I just threw it in for completeness (sorry vanilla runners...).
So perhaps add rule: "(1.5) screen warps allowed - includes LA screen warp and LADX no-clip warping". I think both of these are similar in that they (kind of) allow you to ignore the in-game boundaries (walls) and roam free throughout the map. The rest of "(2) - warps + OoB" would be the same, but without these specific tricks.
I think that rulesets (1) and (1.5) would be relatively short runs, as you are not restricted by the game, and you would just run directly to all 8 instrument rooms and then the nightmares. I think these would be fun to route, but less fun to run. Rules (2)-(4) would be the most used, since you mostly have to obey in-game boundaries (i.e. can't walk through walls), and the only differences are restrictions on where you're allowed to go.
noclip should be banned entirely; any run with noclip(warps + oob, the only category I'd care about :) ) allowed would be unfun to route/run(you'd just go to d4/d8 and get most of the instruments pretty much :/)
I was thinking more about this, and I agree that no-clip doesn't belong in ruleset "(2) - Warps + OoB". I originally thought about a 5th ruleset between 1 and 2 for no-clip and screen warping, but I though having 5 would overdo it. To be completely honest, I know very little about screen warping in LA, so I just threw it in for completeness (sorry vanilla runners...).
So perhaps add rule: "(1.5) screen warps allowed - includes LA screen warp and LADX no-clip warping". I think both of these are similar in that they (kind of) allow you to ignore the in-game boundaries (walls) and roam free throughout the map. The rest of "(2) - warps + OoB" would be the same, but without these specific tricks.
I think that rulesets (1) and (1.5) would be relatively short runs, as you are not restricted by the game, and you would just run directly to all 8 instrument rooms and then the nightmares. I think these would be fun to route, but less fun to run. Rules (2)-(4) would be the most used, since you mostly have to obey in-game boundaries (i.e. can't walk through walls), and the only differences are restrictions on where you're allowed to go.
I agree with the crux of what you're conveying and feel and like your idea of reforming rule names, and that the ladx ruleset has needed a better laid out way of saying "here are the tiers of glitches available in LADX" to be easily and effectively conveyed into logical categories by allowing/disallowing a combination of those on a basis of runner appeal and interest (with any% obv being any% no holds barred, however with how fast DHG is is unlikely to be replaced), and I think in the last few weeks despite how painful it has been at some points for some in the rules talks we've taken better strides toward that.
But most of the rules discussion going on in these past few weeks (months now??) has been specifically around trying to define ruleset 3 as this is the one that most impacts the main category as people are trying to find how best to fit them into the main category, and most are falling in behind the Aullos/Seabass ruleset which is a more narrow variant of Tompa's.
I like your ruleset which is formatted pretty well and logically and largely is how I internalized my idea on what the ladx ruleset should look like. I agree with it that the current main category is in a weird spot between 3 and 4 however I think there might be room and desire for something in between as I think there is a pretty large gap between what you have proposed (S+Q allowed, transitioning anywhere using SJs as long as it's intra-dungeon and No deaths, no S+Q, no villa skip).
Going by your ruleset for example the current main category is No S+Q, No OoB, No Warps, No Dog House (as super jumps as they exist in current main route have been defined as not Out of Bounds), and I think the difference between this route, your proposed ruleset 3 route, and ruleset 4 route is larger and less redundant than you think
But most of the rules discussion going on in these past few weeks (months now??) has been specifically around trying to define ruleset 3 as this is the one that most impacts the main category as people are trying to find how best to fit them into the main category, and most are falling in behind the Aullos/Seabass ruleset which is a more narrow variant of Tompa's.
I like your ruleset which is formatted pretty well and logically and largely is how I internalized my idea on what the ladx ruleset should look like. I agree with it that the current main category is in a weird spot between 3 and 4 however I think there might be room and desire for something in between as I think there is a pretty large gap between what you have proposed (S+Q allowed, transitioning anywhere using SJs as long as it's intra-dungeon and No deaths, no S+Q, no villa skip).
Going by your ruleset for example the current main category is No S+Q, No OoB, No Warps, No Dog House (as super jumps as they exist in current main route have been defined as not Out of Bounds), and I think the difference between this route, your proposed ruleset 3 route, and ruleset 4 route is larger and less redundant than you think
Right, my goal to was to make as simple of a ruleset as possible, while trying to make as many people happy as possible... It seemed to me like a lot of the discussion/argument was based around where super jumps are/should be allowed, and what constitutes out of bounds. That's why I tried to include more absolute statements like "super jump wherever you want in the area" or "never go OoB" into the rules.
I tried to make the categories more rigid regarding boundaries in the game itself*, and less about runners' preferences. If people don't like that approach, I'm totally okay with it. If the rules end up being "do the things everyone likes", it will probably just cause minor headaches every so often as the community evolves.
I'm certainly not an expert on the various routes in the game (I've only been running for a year), so I agree that the current route, rules 3, and rules 4 could be very different, which is good! I don't think people would run/enjoy different categories if they overlap too much. And I'm also okay with "mixing it up" a bit :)
Again, though I prefer rules in my previous post, if we end up hashing out a more specific set of rules regarding no OoB, specific super jumps, etc. to be used in a single "main category", that's also good. As long as it's written down somewhere for current and future runners.
* For Tompa's approach to warping, I initially thought it should be defined as stay within a given sub-map. That works for the dungeons mostly, but the caves could still easily be broken. That's why I phrased it more like: stay within the screens that you're supposed to be on for the section you're in.
I tried to make the categories more rigid regarding boundaries in the game itself*, and less about runners' preferences. If people don't like that approach, I'm totally okay with it. If the rules end up being "do the things everyone likes", it will probably just cause minor headaches every so often as the community evolves.
Going by your ruleset for example the current main category is No S+Q, No OoB, No Warps, No Dog House (as super jumps as they exist in current main route have been defined as not Out of Bounds), and I think the difference between this route, your proposed ruleset 3 route, and ruleset 4 route is larger and less redundant than you think
I'm certainly not an expert on the various routes in the game (I've only been running for a year), so I agree that the current route, rules 3, and rules 4 could be very different, which is good! I don't think people would run/enjoy different categories if they overlap too much. And I'm also okay with "mixing it up" a bit :)
Again, though I prefer rules in my previous post, if we end up hashing out a more specific set of rules regarding no OoB, specific super jumps, etc. to be used in a single "main category", that's also good. As long as it's written down somewhere for current and future runners.
* For Tompa's approach to warping, I initially thought it should be defined as stay within a given sub-map. That works for the dungeons mostly, but the caves could still easily be broken. That's why I phrased it more like: stay within the screens that you're supposed to be on for the section you're in.
Maybe I'm just slow, but this exact same discussion seemed to happen behind the scenes 1.5 years ago, and "many of us" decided super jumping was banned...
Based on this logic, I should just have defined my previous "ruleset 4" to be the same as the current category: Allow villa skip (since it's not technically OoB according to giu), and allow death to shopkeeper or death to refill hearts (just no death warping). Sorry, I just got too excited about warpless+deathless :)...
I disagree with adding limited superjumps that don't drop you OoB, but let you go through OoB to get there (D6, D8 boss room, dream shrine).
TL;DR of my last 4 posts:
I vote no for super jumps. We should put them in the OoB (no ww) rules, and leave the current "any% (no oob, no ww, no s+q)" route as is.
There have been a lot of changes in the LADX scene recently, and records have been flying left and right. With the newest set of found tricks, some people are confused as to exactly what and what not should be allowed. So, many of us have gotten together and agreed on a new set of rules for the game, which will soon be reflected in the rules page. Here they are...
[...]
any% warpless is now rebranded as any% no oob.. For both games, this includes all the existing rules for warpless, as well as the following: "you may not clip through or jump over solid walls". This essentially bans any known use of the new ledge glitch, as all of those require jumping the wrong way over ledges to each out-of-bounds areas. In terms of already known tricks, this bans the walk-on-ceiling glitch in caves, the level 2 bracelet skip, and most forms of hookshot clipping (including frog song skip). It does NOT ban the tricks to enter and exit Richard's villa, as these only involve transitioning the screen over an area where a solid object exists and falling until Link reaches solid ground.
[...]
Based on this logic, I should just have defined my previous "ruleset 4" to be the same as the current category: Allow villa skip (since it's not technically OoB according to giu), and allow death to shopkeeper or death to refill hearts (just no death warping). Sorry, I just got too excited about warpless+deathless :)...
I disagree with adding limited superjumps that don't drop you OoB, but let you go through OoB to get there (D6, D8 boss room, dream shrine).
TL;DR of my last 4 posts:
I vote no for super jumps. We should put them in the OoB (no ww) rules, and leave the current "any% (no oob, no ww, no s+q)" route as is.
I agree with friedpotato
QuoteMaybe I'm just slow, but this exact same discussion seemed to happen behind the scenes 1.5 years ago, and "many of us" decided super jumping was banned...
This was back when around half a dozen people regularly ran, almost none of which currently do (I can't even think of any off hand who predate me at the moment). The entire reason this discussion was brought up again was due to constant friction over the old ruleset being ambiguous and seemingly contradictory or not laid out as well as it could have been.
Also again with how people feel about allowing 'limited SJs' by defining OoB under the 'bass ruleset it seems like people do find virtue and usefulness in a category that sits between your ruleset 3 and 4 (by your previous post) to serve as the 'main' one.
Given community desire to do it (going by the votes and general opinion I've felt from chats and what not) I see no reason this category shouldn't exist and that it doesn't feel particularly redundant.
I really, really like your breakdown of the 'tiers' of glitching though that could serve as easy logical points of rule categorizing.
Here is how I feel, defining 'warps' as Tompa's definition of an act that transfers you from one dungeon or cave system to another (D7 mini boss warp, jumping on top of tal tal heights ceiling and walking to wind fish boss, etc.), and defining "Out of Bounds" with the ruleset that seabass has cooked up and that the community has largely decided on.
Any% - Anything goes. True Any%. That being said with how fast Dog House is it is very unlikely it will develop to be anything other than 'dog house category'
Any% No DHG - Dog House disallowed. 'Warps', OoB, S+Q allowed.
Any (All Instruments)% No Warps, No Pups, No problems - Dog House and Warps disallowed. S+Q and Out of Bounds Allowed (I could see perhaps Any% S+Q as it currently exists on the leaderboard being merged with this maybe?)
Any (All Instruments)% No DHG, Warps, OoB, S+Q. - Dog House, Warps, Out of Bounds, S+Q disallowed.
Legacy% (All Instruments) - No Dog house, warps, out of bounds, save and quit, deaths (so buying shovel), no villa skip (so doing kamelot and the full first half of trading sequence).
Again, I think the difference between Legacy% and category 3 with OoB allowed is pretty large and fits well into the ruleset as something between 3 and 5 without being redundant.
Just thinking out loud here, most of the categories are defined by the tricks (for lack of a better word) that are allowed, all of which have the same goal of "Enter Windfish Egg with the tools available to you (in all categories other than Any% and Any% Warps this makes getting all instruments necessary)."
The exceptions here are All Instruments and Hundo which are categorized by a content goal and not by ruleset.
Also if someone has a better idea for category names or naming conventions I'm down.
Also would like to stress since I know how a few have gotten heated or upset over a 'silly' amount of categories that was just a hypothetical list of categories you could logically make my adding/subtracting the different levels of rulesets.
As is in that post I only see 2, maybe 3 categories regularly ran, in this order
1) Main category (looking to be option 4 of my prior post)
2) Any%
3) Category 3 of prior post.
The other categories, being Any% No Dog House, 100%, All Instruments, and Legacy% would very likely be side categories ot be dabbled in once in a while for flavour that would be explored on a basis of individual interest (much like current 100% and All Instruments).
As is in that post I only see 2, maybe 3 categories regularly ran, in this order
1) Main category (looking to be option 4 of my prior post)
2) Any%
3) Category 3 of prior post.
The other categories, being Any% No Dog House, 100%, All Instruments, and Legacy% would very likely be side categories ot be dabbled in once in a while for flavour that would be explored on a basis of individual interest (much like current 100% and All Instruments).
I like where this is going. I mostly agree with leon so far. I think a category 3.5 should be a thing, as people are definitely interested in using superjumps that don't completely destroy the game. Considering that, I don't quite agree with the way you defined #4, potato. Here's my take on it.
Doghouse - entering a door from the wrong side
Walk through walls (wtw) - superjumping in water
Warping - Transitioning from one dungeon or cave system to another
Minor oob allowed - Bass's ruleset
1) No restrictions
2) No doghouse, no wtw
3) No dh, no warping, no wtw (any oob allowed)
3.5) No dh, no warping, no wtw, minor oob allowed (Bass ruleset)
4) No major glitches / legacy%? (no dh, no ww, no wtw, no villa skip, no deloading, no superjumping, minor oob allowed, no s+q)
The reason I still say "minor oob allowed" for legacy% is just because I don't think we have a particularly satisfactory definition for "no oob". We could, perhaps, go with "not allowed to clip more than 3 pixels into a wall" again, but I don't particularly like that, because in some cases you can become "accidentally" or "incidentally" clipped into a wall. Tompa's hookshot-through-moving-blocks technique comes to mind.
Of the categories that might actually be run, I imagine #3 would be too similar to #3.5 to generate much interest. The rest, I could imagine myself running.
Another note, bass's ruleset overlaps with the "no warping" rule, as it says you can't transition in certain places. This isn't necessarily a problem though.
As for original LA, I guess you could throw in a "no screenwarping" rule for #2 and up... I think that should work, though I'm not entirely familiar with that game.
Oh, and I didn't put "no s+q" in #3.5. I don't have strong feelings on that. :P
Doghouse - entering a door from the wrong side
Walk through walls (wtw) - superjumping in water
Warping - Transitioning from one dungeon or cave system to another
Minor oob allowed - Bass's ruleset
1) No restrictions
2) No doghouse, no wtw
3) No dh, no warping, no wtw (any oob allowed)
3.5) No dh, no warping, no wtw, minor oob allowed (Bass ruleset)
4) No major glitches / legacy%? (no dh, no ww, no wtw, no villa skip, no deloading, no superjumping, minor oob allowed, no s+q)
The reason I still say "minor oob allowed" for legacy% is just because I don't think we have a particularly satisfactory definition for "no oob". We could, perhaps, go with "not allowed to clip more than 3 pixels into a wall" again, but I don't particularly like that, because in some cases you can become "accidentally" or "incidentally" clipped into a wall. Tompa's hookshot-through-moving-blocks technique comes to mind.
Of the categories that might actually be run, I imagine #3 would be too similar to #3.5 to generate much interest. The rest, I could imagine myself running.
Another note, bass's ruleset overlaps with the "no warping" rule, as it says you can't transition in certain places. This isn't necessarily a problem though.
As for original LA, I guess you could throw in a "no screenwarping" rule for #2 and up... I think that should work, though I'm not entirely familiar with that game.
Oh, and I didn't put "no s+q" in #3.5. I don't have strong feelings on that. :P
Last edited 06 Apr 2015, 18:24 by Drenn.
Hey everybody.
Sorry for interrupting this discussion.
I found a Super Jump in D3 for getting Pegasus boots that saves 0.86 second. That's seems nothing, but it is quite fun.
It seems that it works best with a PoP active, but I'm not sure because I'm quite a newbie in SJs ;)
Here is my highlight that compares this strat with the normal strat.
http://www.twitch.tv/hawkrex/c/6486978
Sorry for interrupting this discussion.
I found a Super Jump in D3 for getting Pegasus boots that saves 0.86 second. That's seems nothing, but it is quite fun.
It seems that it works best with a PoP active, but I'm not sure because I'm quite a newbie in SJs ;)
Here is my highlight that compares this strat with the normal strat.
http://www.twitch.tv/hawkrex/c/6486978
Also would like to stress since I know how a few have gotten heated or upset over a 'silly' amount of categories that was just a hypothetical list of categories you could logically make my adding/subtracting the different levels of rulesets.
As is in that post I only see 2, maybe 3 categories regularly ran, in this order
1) Main category (looking to be option 4 of my prior post)
2) Any%
3) Category 3 of prior post.
The other categories, being Any% No Dog House, 100%, All Instruments, and Legacy% would very likely be side categories ot be dabbled in once in a while for flavour that would be explored on a basis of individual interest (much like current 100% and All Instruments).
But where is 100% in all this? what tricks should be allowed in 100%? obviously not DHG but what about SJ's, No-Clip, etc?
It seems that right now everyone is making up their own rules as they run, at least to me thats what it looks like, there is no set path for anyone to follow.. so we just have to make our own? that is what has turned me off from running LADX and honestly idk if i want to come back until things are completely settled with no argument left on either side
So, the majority of people agreed on seabass's ruleset earlier, and I think we're sticking with that. This further discussion is (hopefully) just over possible other categories that could be interesting to run - ways of separating the "tiers" of glitches. Discussion over the "main" category's rules has been going on for quite a long time, so I'd very much prefer if we could agree that these are the rules the main category is using now. Sorry if I overcomplicated things with my last post...
I think a lot of us are in agreement but there are just too many options.
So there are 4 levels of OoB in LADX!?:
- no OoB - 3-pixel wall-clip rule
- Bass rules (superjumps + hookshot clip) - you can go over/clip through solid walls, but no free roaming OoB (no cave ceilings etc.)
- OoB - you can use superjumps or other techniques to get OoB (on cave/wall ceilings)
- WtW (walk though walls) - superjumping while swimming to get OoB
Also, these rules can apply to any%, all-instruments%, or 100%
Also, OoB and WtW can also allow or disallow wrong warping (WW - moving between unconnected map regions)
Also, we can allow s+q or no s+q
Also, doghouse a.k.a. no restrictions
The current leaderboard categories are:
- any% (no restrictions)
- all-instruments (no restrictions)
- any%/all-instruments (no OoB, no WW, no s+q)
- any%/all-instruments (no OoB, no WW, s+q)
- 100% (no OoB, no WW, s+q)
OK, so most people want to ditch "no OoB" for "Bass rules" across the board.
I think it would be fun to highlight each of: OoB, WW, and WtW.
As far as 100%... I'm not sure. Maybe add a (WtW, WW, s+q)? Because if you're going to walk around wherever you want, at least have the decency to collect all the items...
Doghouse 100%???
***************
Proposed new leaderboard: (please suggest adding/removing categories)
- any% (no restrictions)
- all-instruments (no restrictions)
- any%/all-instruments (Bass, no WW, no s+q) <-- this is what most folks are currently running
- any%/all-instruments (OoB, no WW, s+q)
- all-instruments (OoB, WW, s+q)
- any%/all-instruments (WtW, no WW, s+q) **this is my favorite potential category... I'm biased...**
- 100% (Bass, no WW, s+q) <-- really close to the current 100%
- 100% (WtW, WW, s+q) <-- because why not
Potentially popular categories:
- any% (OoB, WW, s+q)
- any%/all-instruments (no OoB, no WW, no s+q, no villa skip) <-- legacy% (add buy-the-shovel%??)
- 100% (no restrictions)
So there are 4 levels of OoB in LADX!?:
- no OoB - 3-pixel wall-clip rule
- Bass rules (superjumps + hookshot clip) - you can go over/clip through solid walls, but no free roaming OoB (no cave ceilings etc.)
- OoB - you can use superjumps or other techniques to get OoB (on cave/wall ceilings)
- WtW (walk though walls) - superjumping while swimming to get OoB
Also, these rules can apply to any%, all-instruments%, or 100%
Also, OoB and WtW can also allow or disallow wrong warping (WW - moving between unconnected map regions)
Also, we can allow s+q or no s+q
Also, doghouse a.k.a. no restrictions
The current leaderboard categories are:
- any% (no restrictions)
- all-instruments (no restrictions)
- any%/all-instruments (no OoB, no WW, no s+q)
- any%/all-instruments (no OoB, no WW, s+q)
- 100% (no OoB, no WW, s+q)
OK, so most people want to ditch "no OoB" for "Bass rules" across the board.
I think it would be fun to highlight each of: OoB, WW, and WtW.
As far as 100%... I'm not sure. Maybe add a (WtW, WW, s+q)? Because if you're going to walk around wherever you want, at least have the decency to collect all the items...
Doghouse 100%???
***************
Proposed new leaderboard: (please suggest adding/removing categories)
- any% (no restrictions)
- all-instruments (no restrictions)
- any%/all-instruments (Bass, no WW, no s+q) <-- this is what most folks are currently running
- any%/all-instruments (OoB, no WW, s+q)
- all-instruments (OoB, WW, s+q)
- any%/all-instruments (WtW, no WW, s+q) **this is my favorite potential category... I'm biased...**
- 100% (Bass, no WW, s+q) <-- really close to the current 100%
- 100% (WtW, WW, s+q) <-- because why not
Potentially popular categories:
- any% (OoB, WW, s+q)
- any%/all-instruments (no OoB, no WW, no s+q, no villa skip) <-- legacy% (add buy-the-shovel%??)
- 100% (no restrictions)
I think we will see which category is run the most. (Although it's understandable that some people dont like to run as long as this isnt really settled). We have quite a lot of categories to choose from.
Maybe we can do some races of some categories. I'll try to stream this evening. I would like to do a run of All Instruments (no WW). That one looks like a cool run to me
Maybe we can do some races of some categories. I'll try to stream this evening. I would like to do a run of All Instruments (no WW). That one looks like a cool run to me
I honestly don't like the idea of having a 100% with no restrictions. I know it was just a fun idea but until this game and its current categories are redefined I don't see the need for any more :p
In keeping with how it has been in the past 100% would be no Dog House, no warps, no OoB, and I'm hesitant to allow SJs in it but that is just me. I feel that 100% has the implied intention of being the 'do all the meaningful content' category without utilizing significant skips to accomplish that, or at least that has been my interpretation of it, so I'm hesitant to allow things on it that let you skip large amounts of the content.
The main category *has* been decided on, no one is 'making up' rules. That is what the entire vote on the super jumps was about. The category is using the seabass ruleset of Super Jumps, people have been doing runs and submitting them. At this point the only confusion is (or should be) around the categories surrounding it but main category/any% no S+Q is defined with people running it.
The discussion going on here is more about how to define the (define meaning description-wise not the actual changing of) the rulesets and tiers of tricks.
The main category *has* been decided on, no one is 'making up' rules. That is what the entire vote on the super jumps was about. The category is using the seabass ruleset of Super Jumps, people have been doing runs and submitting them. At this point the only confusion is (or should be) around the categories surrounding it but main category/any% no S+Q is defined with people running it.
The discussion going on here is more about how to define the (define meaning description-wise not the actual changing of) the rulesets and tiers of tricks.
Also I propose keeping the leaderboards as is. Categories can be added later, and I think it's better handled by just doing the natural process of seeing which rulesets people become interested in and decide to route, and when enough interest or demand exists, can be easily added as a formal category to the leaderboard later.
I don't like or agree with arguments against 'category saturation' but I don't think making 4 theory ones no one has done before and throwing them onto the leaderboard is the right step, either. My opinion is that things should remain as they are now on the leaderboards and letting it evolve and develop naturally on the basis of what ends up seeing activity and what doesn't.
Also can we have a better naming convention. Any% No DHG Warps OoB S+Q is a bit convoluted
I don't like or agree with arguments against 'category saturation' but I don't think making 4 theory ones no one has done before and throwing them onto the leaderboard is the right step, either. My opinion is that things should remain as they are now on the leaderboards and letting it evolve and develop naturally on the basis of what ends up seeing activity and what doesn't.
Also can we have a better naming convention. Any% No DHG Warps OoB S+Q is a bit convoluted
@Leon, Yeah, that's a good point. We definitely can't remake the leaderboard full of new, empty categories... That would look silly... I guess I was proposing potential leaderboard/race categories for the future? I like SurrealGuy's idea of testing some of them out with races.
I expect that if we go with "see which category is run most", we could easily end up with every person running their own set of rules. My list was intended to present some ideas to collect people into common categories. I just think if people are going to try out new rules, we should have some defined rulesets available beforehand to get everyone on the same page.
As far as naming goes, I think we agree that "no OoB" means seabass rules? I dont think "no doghouse" or "no walk though walls" needs to be in the title of the run, just in the rule description, since it's kind of the default. Also, I don't think you need to specify "no WW" for a "no OoB" category. Finally, I'd say that s+q should be the default, so only "no s+q" should be specified. The main category would be "any% (no OoB, no s+q)"
OR... we could have short category names like OoT and put everything in the rule description. Here's a bunch of ideas for that approach:
- Warpless = any%/all instruments (no OoB, no s+q) <-- main category (Do people like the word "warpless"?)
- No Out of Bounds = any%/all instruments (no OoB)
- No Wrong Warps = any%/all instruments (OoB, no WW)
- Exploration = any%/all instruments (WtW, no WW)
- No Doghouse = all instruments (OoB, WW, no doghouse)
- Glitchless = legacy% (no OoB, no s+q, no villa skip, buy the shovel, etc. )
I expect that if we go with "see which category is run most", we could easily end up with every person running their own set of rules. My list was intended to present some ideas to collect people into common categories. I just think if people are going to try out new rules, we should have some defined rulesets available beforehand to get everyone on the same page.
As far as naming goes, I think we agree that "no OoB" means seabass rules? I dont think "no doghouse" or "no walk though walls" needs to be in the title of the run, just in the rule description, since it's kind of the default. Also, I don't think you need to specify "no WW" for a "no OoB" category. Finally, I'd say that s+q should be the default, so only "no s+q" should be specified. The main category would be "any% (no OoB, no s+q)"
OR... we could have short category names like OoT and put everything in the rule description. Here's a bunch of ideas for that approach:
- Warpless = any%/all instruments (no OoB, no s+q) <-- main category (Do people like the word "warpless"?)
- No Out of Bounds = any%/all instruments (no OoB)
- No Wrong Warps = any%/all instruments (OoB, no WW)
- Exploration = any%/all instruments (WtW, no WW)
- No Doghouse = all instruments (OoB, WW, no doghouse)
- Glitchless = legacy% (no OoB, no s+q, no villa skip, buy the shovel, etc. )
Last edited 07 Apr 2015, 15:17 by friedpotato.
Hey everybody.
Sorry for interrupting this discussion.
I found a Super Jump in D3 for getting Pegasus boots that saves 0.86 second. That's seems nothing, but it is quite fun.
It seems that it works best with a PoP active, but I'm not sure because I'm quite a newbie in SJs ;)
Here is my highlight that compares this strat with the normal strat.
http://www.twitch.tv/hawkrex/c/6486978
Nice! I couldn't get this to work consistently enough to justify the <1 sec time save... I think it will be even better for a s+q category since you can avoid pushing the blocks at all to save a couple more seconds.