VC Control Stick Mapping

making ESS harder is not a problem if we can switch, lol.
it's basically about the aiming. but if we can switch the settings for ESS and non ESS, it would be perfect :D

Yes, N64 MM has some serious issues with the control stick. The problem is most egregious if you have an old, worn-out N64 stick - if you have a newer stick, it's not as bad. You basically have a choice between messed up directions (N64) and bad ESS/aiming (VC). It kind of sucks.

ING-X wrote

Yes, N64 MM has some serious issues with the control stick. The problem is most egregious if you have an old, worn-out N64 stick - if you have a newer stick, it's not as bad. You basically have a choice between messed up directions (N64) and bad ESS/aiming (VC). It kind of sucks.

Thanks for the input. This kind of sucks. If MM had ESS like OoT then it wouldn't really be a problem to add extra deadzone. I still have to try adding extra deadzone. Maybe you only need a tiny bit of extra deadzone, to make turning and walking straight better. 

Another option I'm thinking about is making the deadzone only bigger for positions where you have the stick fully tilted (if you press forward, then there's a bigger deadzone to left and right for instance). That should fix the walking straight issue and it should also fix shield turning. Only thing it wouldn't fix is ESS turning.  :-[

Making it possible to toggle the deadzone during gameplay would be a solution, but I think that might be a bit unfair.

I'm pretty busy at the moment. I'm gonna try my best to work on this and hopefully finish this stuff for good.  :P

I don't really like the idea of "fixing" the n64 controls on VC so that walking straight forward is easier. It seems like it's creating an artificial control mapping that doesn't correspond to anything actually existent - kind of like if you were to enlarge the ESS range to be bigger than on N64.

if the n64 deadzone is like putting it to 0% on PJ64, I'd be fine with it... tested it a little recently and like it much better... back walking and such is not as much of a problem as I thought it would be

ING-X wrote

I don't really like the idea of "fixing" the n64 controls on VC so that walking straight forward is easier. It seems like it's creating an artificial control mapping that doesn't correspond to anything actually existent - kind of like if you were to enlarge the ESS range to be bigger than on N64.

Yeah I agree on that. If I were to do it, I'd most likely do it for the GC adapter.

thiefbug wrote

if the n64 deadzone is like putting it to 0% on PJ64, I'd be fine with it... tested it a little recently and like it much better... back walking and such is not as much of a dead as I thought it would be

I am going to compare this. Did you try it with an N64 or GC controller?

GC pad only, I don't have a N64 to USB adapter.
I noticed some slight difference when it comes to movement, but it's not a big deal as long as you're not on low health

Start of next week I'm done with all my exams. Then I'll have time to pick things up again (test MM on emu, I need to install Windows for that). I'll then also finish all the adapters for people that asked for one. Sorry for the delay.

whyieyesya wrote

Start of next week I'm done with all my exams. Then I'll have time to pick things up again (test MM on emu, I need to install Windows for that). I'll then also finish all the adapters for people that asked for one. Sorry for the delay.

Great, looking forward to it.  And good luck with exams!

got my gc to n64 adapter now and oh my god, this is godlike for oot.
I know that I'll have to get used to stuff like turning by 90° again and such, but for the aiming and the angle change during ESS, it's worth it x)

reeeally looking forward to it :D

Can you try MM with it? My GC to GC adapter handles OoT differently, so it probably feels a bit different from N64 with GC to N64 adapter. I made the ESS region bigger and I also give it a tiny bit more deadzone, because I thought it was pretty sensitive. Unfortunately these tricks are more complicated for MM, because aiming deadzone and ESS deadzone are different, so if I make ESS region bigger, I'll screw up the aiming and vice versa. :p

I'm really close to finishing the adapters for the people that wanted one. I have some deadlines for school projects that turned out to be more work than I thought. Anyways, I'll have the adapters finished within a few days. After that I'm also going to work on MM again.

I'd really like to test that for MM, but I don't have a MM cart :/

Thief I would send you one if you promise to send it back signed when you're done with it. ~Kappa.

Looking forward to starting with the adapter whyeye!

thiefbug wrote

I'd really like to test that for MM, but I don't have a MM cart :/

I'll test it on emulator then.

Thiefbug, what value do you use for the analog stick range on emulator? I assume you use Project64 with the N-Rage input plugin? Otherwise, that setting may not make any sense to you. :P

I use the n-rage plugin.
backwalking is a little tricky if the deadzone is lower than 5%, but you can get used to the rest within minutes.
except for keeping ess position, lol.
btw, checked on oot - can't backwalk straight with 0% deadzone, which is just as it is on VC in there.
to get the same feeling on emu like I do on n64 with the pad, I need a deadzone of 2%

on 2% it's still not possible to backwalk straight in MM, so basically same issues (okay, ESS is a little easier, lol)

oh uhm, my stick range is set to 100 x)

thiefbug wrote

I use the n-rage plugin.
backwalking is a little tricky if the deadzone is lower than 5%, but you can get used to the rest within minutes.
except for keeping ess position, lol.
btw, checked on oot - can't backwalk straight with 0% deadzone, which is just as it is on VC in there.
to get the same feeling on emu like I do on n64 with the pad, I need a deadzone of 2%

on 2% it's still not possible to backwalk straight in MM, so basically same issues (okay, ESS is a little easier, lol)

oh uhm, my stick range is set to 100 x)

I think if you calibrate your joystick in windows it might also function for 0% deadzone. It does for me at least.

I'm giving the improved mapping I got a few weeks back a try now with the gc to gc adapter. Right now I multiply the x and y values of the joystick by 0.75, because the joystick of a GC controller has a higher range than that from an N64 controller (about 100 vs 75, I think). With the N64 version I can just read straight from the table.

Aiming is really good. Backwalking works fine, but you don't have a lot of margin. ESS is not hard, but angle changing is imo, but I haven't practiced it at all and I'm used to OoT anyways. Turning straight seems also hard, but that's also the case on N64.

I'm having a Zelda marathon with a friend starting tomorrow. Then I'll also play MM so I can test it more.

so you're using a range of 75%?
0% deadzone and 100% range felt a little too sensitive, imo.

but if I understood that correctly, you're setting the deadzone to 0 and then multiplay the current x and y value by 0.75
sounds pretty good to me, if thats the case

thiefbug wrote

so you're using a range of 75%?
0% deadzone and 100% range felt a little too sensitive, imo.

Yeah it should be 75%. Allthough I don't think it is completely accurate to console, because it feels a little different. It is close though.

Quote

but if I understood that correctly, you're setting the deadzone to 0 and then multiplay the current x and y value by 0.75
sounds pretty good to me, if thats the case

Yes, I have a mapping table for the N64 to GC adapter to give an N64 controller controls like on N64. But if you use that table directly with the GC controller, then you get that the control stick is very sensitive, because the range of a GC joystick is bigger. So I decrease the range by multiplying it with 0.75. I'm pretty sure the Raphnet GC to N64 adapter does this as well.

that sounds amazing :D
can't wait to get my hands on it ^_^

Ok, I tested the improved GC to GC adapter during the marathon. It feels pretty good, aiming is amazing. ESS is a bit hard, but that is probably mostly because the region for it a lot smaller than for OoT and it's also harder to keep your joystick in a fixed position on a GC controller. Backwalking wasn't a problem, it worked really well.

I played through MM and did an old any% route (pretty much the one Runnerguy used at AGDQ). In Snowhead I didn't need the scarecrow song, I could easily aim for the torch. The BK skip for Great Bay Temple was one of the tricks I noticed I had some trouble with. I was playing on the US version and Link doesn't turn around after equiping Zora mask, so I had to do that myself. Unfortunately turning straight is quite hard. I had trouble with that trick anyways, because of the big number of succesive inputs and the small time frame, so I was forced to pause buffer it partly. I think I'll give this trick another try soon. Maybe a shield turn will be enough to do it consistently. I don't think turning completely straight is required.

So yeah, basically the control problems for the original N64 version are back: turning straight is hard. I guess this is a good time for you to give it a try, Thiefbug, so we can see how the increased difficulty of turning affects speedrunning. I'm out of some parts at the moment unfortunately, so it will take some time before I can get you one. In the meantime I'll also give all my GC controllers a try with it, to see if backwalking and other things are correct.

is the GC to GC adapter works on PJ64?

I'll gladly give it a try :D
if you want, you can send me a PM with your paypal email and the price and I'll send the money to you and my adress afterwards.

Can't wait ^_^

thiefbug wrote

I'll gladly give it a try :D
if you want, you can send me a PM with your paypal email and the price and I'll send the money to you and my adress afterwards.

Can't wait ^_^

Unfortunately I don't have all parts as I already said. I hope I get them quickly. Maybe I can sacrifice one of my own adapters. I'll PM you when I have something to sell.

Zargaroc wrote

is the GC to GC adapter works on PJ64?

It's an adapter you put between your Wii and your controller (either N64 or GC controller) to get rid of deadzone in some of the more popular VC games.

I'm at ESA the next two weeks anyways, so no need to hurry.
it's done when it's done ^^

Finally, with a GameCube disc on the Wii, I can do the shooting gallery in a reasonable amount of time in 100% runs!  (I beat the adult version in OoT twice in about 5 minutes, versus taking something like 90 minutes without the control stick corrections.)

Thanks, whyieyesya!!

(By the way, rumble does not work for me with the adapter.  No big deal at all, but just curious is there a configuration that would allow it to still work.)

skyyye wrote

Finally, with a GameCube disc on the Wii, I can do the shooting gallery in a reasonable amount of time in 100% runs!  (I beat the adult version in OoT twice in about 5 minutes, versus taking something like 90 minutes without the control stick corrections.)

Thanks, whyieyesya!!

(By the way, rumble does not work for me with the adapter.  No big deal at all, but just curious is there a configuration that would allow it to still work.)

Just curious, are you using the correct mapping? There is a special mapping for the GC Zeldas. I don't think a lot of people are aware of that/care about it.

I don't do anything with rumble. I forgot the GC versions have it. Actually I wanted to use the rumble feature, so you would be able to notice that the mapping has changed by activating it for a few seconds. Unfortunately some adapters would stop working as soon as rumble started. Maybe that's because too much power is asked from the Wii (probably not) or the rumble interferes with the adapter in some way. It would have been nice to have, but I decided not to bother anymore. Now that you remind me of the GC Zeldas having rumble I might have another look at it some day, but more for the heck of it.

whyieyesya wrote

Just curious, are you using the correct mapping? There is a special mapping for the GC Zeldas. I don't think a lot of people are aware of that/care about it.

I don't do anything with rumble. I forgot the GC versions have it. Actually I wanted to use the rumble feature, so you would be able to notice that the mapping has changed by activating it for a few seconds. Unfortunately some adapters would stop working as soon as rumble started. Maybe that's because too much power is asked from the Wii (probably not) or the rumble interferes with the adapter in some way. It would have been nice to have, but I decided not to bother anymore. Now that you remind me of the GC Zeldas having rumble I might have another look at it some day, but more for the heck of it.

I believe I have the correct mapping.  First I used D-Right, which worked well except there was no response to L and R.  Then I used L + D-Up, and with that all the buttons/sticks worked.  Rumble did not work in either case.  I'd be curious if you figure out what happened with it, but, yeah, definitely not a big deal.

skyyye wrote

I believe I have the correct mapping.  First I used D-Right, which worked well except there was no response to L and R.  Then I used L + D-Up, and with that all the buttons/sticks worked.  Rumble did not work in either case.  I'd be curious if you figure out what happened with it, but, yeah, definitely not a big deal.

You did it correctly. If I ever fix the rumble function it would require a firmware update.

I am gone for about two weeks. After that I can take orders again (I have enough parts). Classic Controller to GC is also an option now.

Thiefbug, when I am back, then maybe I can get you a GC to GC converter to test MM?