OoT3D: 100% Segmented Discussion [NG+ Saw]

Nah it's OK I did my fair share of ripping off the normal oot seg'd route.

Yeah time of day was something that I couldn't optimize as much as I would have liked. It's not really reasonable for me to go out and see how fast you can get from a to b on a game I don't own and when I'm kinda bad at the one I do :p. Maybe I could still theory route out a couple of the Sun's Songs though, IDK.

Splitting shadow into two parts is something I still don't know whether or not to do. The main reason it's done on normal OoT is because FW saves too much time and they don't have it when they get the hovers. But it's not the only reason. They also have Longshot, Ice Arrows, and BGS to save time with. Longshot is probably the best of these, with several places to save a couple seconds, the biggest one being that boat room GS. I realized now that I still kinda have to waste a bit of time with having to FW back to get to shadow. FW is like 15 seconds, to warping and entering the dungeon's 35 or 40 or so. I think there's a pretty good chance it's faster to split it up but I can't say it for sure... And if I do split it up, I have no idea where I'd take damage for the bolero CS skip without wasting a billion bombs or something (though maybe I could save a couple seconds on hp's if I didn't have to avoid them between shadow and bolero). There's also 50 free rupees in shadow and they I think kinda help out a bit but I'm sure I could easily find replacements at the cost of only a couple seconds. So uh, I was kinda hoping somebody would come and say something definitive about it but nobody really seems to know how much time those items actually save. There are a few other things that I'm not sure are saving time... Maybe someday I'll make a post about them if anybody actually decides to make a go of the route.

I thought I looked up that shield swipe still worked on 3D. If for some reason you can't dupe the milk then I guess you'll just have to drink it at some point. The input for it is fairly complicated and I'm not totally sure what exactly it is because the documentation of it is strangely poor. It's something like... get an empty bottle in your hand. Hold R. Push bottle. Push the item you want to dupe (if the item has a crouch stab, it'll crouch stab instead and you can't dupe it). Hold Z. Hold Bottle. Release R. The bottle swings and dupes using whatever you catch. Maybe I've got that wrong IDK. I sometimes throw in extra button presses for good measure, lol.

On normal OoT they get the lower red rock gs by killing it and then poking the hookshot through the rock at it. At the very least, on 3D, you should be able to hookshot clip it from the wall on the other side, if that method doesn't work anymore. The upper red rock GS is a little more iffy. They kill it and then backflip into it at the right angle to get the token. Maybe the changed hookshot mechanics in this game would let you get that with the hookshot too, if the backflip thing doesn't work anymore.

What's this about saving time with flipping back and forth through time? You have to do it at least once because of the song of storms. I managed to find reasons to want to leave child 2 until the very end, though they're just small time savers and you could probably put it anywhere after you get the stuff you need. Maybe that would be a good idea if you find yourself having to go through a lot of trouble to get bomb drops. You could maybe pick up the BB40 and it's free refill a little earlier.

I thought you were adapting the normal OoT 100% seg'd route, which I know flips back and forth more than once.  I figured you might have a few less overall seeing as we can't DoT skip, but again, I just kind of skimmed everything after Child 1. I don't really understand why they do it, and I'm not sure if the RTA route makes as many trips either.

Thanks for clarifying shield swipes. I'd seen CloudMax talking about them in the R&D, but I never knew what they were or how to do them. I don't think there could be a target input in 3D as putting up the shield while Z-targeting puts away any item you have in your hand that isn't your sword. I think Grezzo did that to make it so you couldn't do the glitch where you can see the hookshot laser while running around, although I thought that one was harmless and was actually really cool.

I'd think you could jump in the lava to damage yourself for Bolero cs skip. I don't recommend having long stretches in which Adult Link is running around with 1/2 <3, because in 3D they added a decrease in walking speed when you get that low on health to simulate fatigue.

Regarding the red rock GSs, I'm not sure a Hookshot clip would work from the opposite wall. The sidehop method of hookshot clipping only works if you're looking down and left. We may be able to get it from the obtuse angle on the tunnel. I'll do some testing. As for the upper... I tried laying a bomb next to the rock and it didn't kill it. I might have thrown it, so I'll test it again, but for now, I think that one will need to wait for hammer. Backflips in 3D have a completely different animation from the 64 version and don't go as high either, because Grezzo wanted to make it more realistic. The backflip may not clip far enough into the rock to get it. I tried to hookshot clip into the boulder to kill the Skulltula, but it kept pinging off the inside of the rock. Might be able to grab the token; again I'll do some testing. Deku grove GS w/ chu and hookshot should still be possible, and maybe even easier, because an extra ring appears around the laser when it's on a hookshotable object. I'm pretty sure this is also true for tokens, but I've never really payed attention to these in particular because I just aim and fire at them.

The normal oot 100 only switches time once... There's a couple things that a 2nd time flip could be useful for, maybe, but they don't save the time it takes to switch.

They usually killed them with jumpslashes or spins. Waiting until after the hammer would really suck. There's a chance it would mean a much earlier child 2 in order to plant the dmc bean... IDK what would happen really. Try looking up some oot 100 runs to get a better look at what they do when you test this...

A brief search seems to indicate that shield swipe only works if the bottle is on your B button? I guess you'll just have to drink it.

The red rock GS's are blocked from inside the walls as well, but I don't know about clipping through them yet...

Apparently the actor glitch in Jabu is fine? What about the mirror room actor glitch in spirit? I still need to be able to spawn the chest, and later I have to kill the enemies in lower child-side to open a barred door. If you can use the actor glitch to get down, that'd save a good bit of time.

Yeah, it should work in Spirit since Jabu works. But they moved the location of the crystal switch so there needs to be another setup.

Why would you assume it works in spirit because it works in jabu if it doesn't work in botw.... Unless they, like, specifically screwed around with botw just to troll us.

So do I need the hammer for those GS's or not?

You're right that I shouldn't assume about the Spirit Temple. And yes, you need the hammer to reach those GSs in DMT unfortunately.

askfjh

I don't think it's possible to fix this without having to make another trip through the crater. I thought of a couple of things you could try to cut down on that, but I couldn't think of anything that didn't sound slower. This means:

- The extra bolero warp might make the CS skip not worth it.
- It might be worth it to plant the bean.

Not sure about either of those.

Okay, so I'm actually playing through the route, r0bd0g. I got through segment 13 yesterday. I like most of it, and I was able to move some stuff around.

-First of all I didn't grab the crater HP and soil GS because it is extremely difficult to get them in 24 seconds. It's your choice about whether or not they themselves should be moved, but if you do not need to move them, I would suggest obtaining the Hylian Shield in the graveyard to allow some deathwarps and error so that Link will not lose his Deku Shield.

-In segment 8 I was able to obtain the Fire Arrow platform GS because when I got the letter it was sunset. I used a mini superswim off of a megaflip and swam the rest of the distance, which is still pretty slow, but I got to the Lab GS before the sun came up. I do think that there should be a Hess of some sort (I wonder if you could Wess to it) to save time in some way.

-I got the Know-it-All brothers GS after Jabu before heading into Deku. At first I thought this was just an error until I noticed that after the Requiem and soil GS it literally becomes dawn, so you can head to LLR and do the day stuff first and change it to night afterward, which should reduce the amount of Sun's Songs played to 1.

-Overall I liked how obtaining the slingshot optimized the later segments. That was a good call, imho.

No chance on the hylian shield grave. The HP and GS -might- move now that I have to make another trip through the crater, IDK. If it's possible to get it in 24 seconds and it's the fastest way, then that's what'll have to be done. You might be able to use your bugs to do timer delay? Maybe in RTA you would do something else to get the HP and warp in for the GS?

Did you get the sense that it was faster or slower than using serenade to get it in child 2?

I wonder if I can route the Sun's Song completely out of child 1 and skip that trip to the graveyard to get it, and perhaps speed up getting the song as well since I wouldn't have to walk back out of the grave. One problem spot is going to be the child ZF GS. I would have to leave Jabu after boomerang and then walk back in after I get the GS... The only reason I can consider this is b/c I don't need Epona's in child 1 anymore. I will have to lose time traveling all the way to child GV since probably lon lon will be after the bunny hood instead... Maybe it's slower even if it does work out. Anyway, you're right about that GS, so I'll fix that.

I wanna check if I can move the skulltula rewards to when I deliver the Keaton Mask. I've thought of an improvement that, if I do it, won't have enough GS's to get the upgrades where I get them now. Maybe it's faster at Keaton Mask anyway. EDIT: Yeah I was able to get rid of a FW usage by moving a sun's song warp that only saved like 1 second to earlier in the route. But then the place I used to get the quiver upgrade had to get moved since I hadn't been to forest yet, bringing another sun's song back into the route, plus another second or so of travel. So for like 3 seconds saved, I guess I'd rather not make the minuet & bolero segment even longer, unless there's a clip so I can get that quiver upgrade at night. Still moving the upgrade, though.

In an RTA there would need to be other methods. For the HP there is only one shot to get it if you plan to get it after double magic. I think you can obtain the GS with the timer glitch as long as you use the bottle many times to stop the timer. But they would have to be seperated in order for link to keep his shield.

I'm going to time obtaining both methods to reach the platform. You can superswim to the platform from both areas, but I will need to time the warp as well.

Serenade: 32 sec

From letter: 28 sec

It is 4 seconds faster, and I just swam from the letter that time. But I am really good at mashing and these times are within a margin of error unless you have to play the Sun's Song for the Serenade method.

That would be a big route change with the Sun's Song. But I'm going to check more of the route you already posted.

I'll check more about the rewards movement once I get there.

Does that include the time it takes to get back from the platform?

You can get that GS in child 2 at any point as long as the previous segment ended at night.

Oh I just noticed it's night in seg 14, so I moved the bazaar, tower, and tree GS's to it.

Okay, it took me 28 seconds to get back there. This was with a Hess off of an Octorok. It should be 5 seconds faster if you manage to not get caught in the bridge like I did here.

http://pastebin.com/z0kGpJsT

Hopefully now I'm done. I made this to fix issues with the red rock GS's apparently requiring the hammer. Had to change some things as a result...

- The Fire Temple WW was removed. With the time it takes to warp to bolero, it wasn't worth it anymore. (Maybe.)
- Child 2 was moved earlier so I could plant the bean. IDK if it's faster but w/e, enjoy your bean. The earlier 40 bag should come in handy. I didn't realize before that it wouldn't really be much trouble to do child 2 with a big poe still in one of your bottles.
- The Know it all bros house GS was moved and took out a lot of Sun's Song crap. I was also able to move some Kak GS's around.
- I was thinking to put Spirit after Fire but didn't b/c it might be difficult to get the many magic drops that that would require. Probably not the best thing to lose a couple seconds for. Maybe time of day or bomb counts would be more vital. Just keep in mind you can put spirit after fire if for some reason you think that'll work out better.
- I left the fire arrow platform GS until Child 2. I can't tell from what fox is saying if it's faster to swim all the way over there or not... If you can't do full superswims, I'm was guessing it wasn't. I'm not sure if he's realizing that if I get it in child 1, I have to swim all the way back from the platform as well.

And I really hope this is the last time I have to mess around with this. Renumbering segments, gs's, hp's, rupees.... not quite as fun as it sounds.

I hear you there, r0bd0g. Routing is annoying sometimes. :(

In NG+ news, which I know nobody cares about but I'm still doing it anyways, I'm going to begin rerouting child 1 tonight. Thankfully, BA-ing the saw only takes a few minutes, so it won't be that annoying to start over. ^_^

Norkix wrote

Thankfully, BA-ing the saw only takes a few minutes, so it won't be that annoying to start over. ^_^

Can't you not just save a file with BA saw to set up your NG+ file? That's what I do for FW :P

I had that originally, but I accidentally saved after practicing FWWW... :'( So I need to get Saw all over again.

Okay, there are three extra hookshot clips that I used in the Shadow Temple to reach things:

-Hookshot clip in skulltula/guillotine path to skip dealing with the skulltulas and walking
 
-I clipped to skip the second Silver Rupee puzzle

-I was able to clip through the corner of the wall to obtain the GS in the falling spike room, but you have to push the block to stop the first falling spike set from hitting you, so idk if it saves time there.

Bongo wasn't that bad with just the hookshot. I actually think it would need testing to see how much time longshot, BGS and Ice Arrows would save. We could block skip with the longshot which would save some time. And there's the stuff that normal Oot does.

r0bd0g wrote

- I left the fire arrow platform GS until Child 2. I can't tell from what fox is saying if it's faster to swim all the way over there or not... If you can't do full superswims, I'm was guessing it wasn't. I'm not sure if he's realizing that if I get it in child 1, I have to swim all the way back from the platform as well.

From the data I collected, it is faster to wait until child 2 to grab it. You save 20 seconds with the Serenade method instead of during your first trip to Lake Hylia. I should have specified beforehand. :P

Just a quick question: How do Ice Arrows save time in Shadow?

"Just a quick question: How do Ice Arrows save time in Shadow?"
They should speed up the bongo fight by a few seconds.

"Hookshot clip in skulltula/guillotine path to skip dealing with the skulltulas and walking"
I've added that to my copy of the route. Good eye.

"I clipped to skip the second Silver Rupee puzzle"
How did you manage that? You mean the one with the beamos and the traps? I looked around there and couldn't find anything to hookshot to. What'd you hookshot?

"I was able to clip through the corner of the wall to obtain the GS in the falling spike room, but you have to push the block to stop the first falling spike set from hitting you, so idk if it saves time there."
Neat, but yeah I'm kinda doubting that one when you can basically just run in there and get the thing.

Wha- How could Ice Arrows speed up Bongo? I know they freeze his hand, but I've never seen an instance where they're faster than regular arrows. But maybe I just haven't been looking in the right places.

r0bd0g, if you backwalk to Castle Town from Fairy Ocarina, you should make it there before nightfall. I don't know what this waiting for dawn business is.

Norkix wrote

Wha- How could Ice Arrows speed up Bongo? I know they freeze his hand, but I've never seen an instance where they're faster than regular arrows. But maybe I just haven't been looking in the right places.

He opens his eye, which shortens his first phase and makes it extremely easy.

r0bd0g wrote

"I clipped to skip the second Silver Rupee puzzle"
How did you manage that? You mean the one with the beamos and the traps? I looked around there and couldn't find anything to hookshot to. What'd you hookshot?

There are these wooden things alongside the walls that you can hookshot like all the wooden floors in the room before block skip, and I hookshot one to skip the walkway and another is close enough to get past the gate to the falling spike room.

"I don't know what this waiting for dawn business is."
You need the egg to hatch to wake Talon.

"There are these wooden things alongside the walls that you can hookshot like all the wooden floors in the room before block skip, and I hookshot one to skip the walkway and another is close enough to get past the gate to the falling spike room."
Those aren't hookshotable in normal OoT. I specifically checked to see if you could skip this gate. I was like, why can you not hookshot this stuff but I could do it back in the Skulltula room.
I'll add that in, assume it's not solid coming the other way. I don't think this will cause rupee problems but I'll have to check to be sure. EDIT: Yeah, if I don't pick up any extra rupees I'll have exactly enough for the deku nut upgrade.

r0b, I wasn't talking about the Wierd Egg, I was talking about the bridge rupees. You say it doesn't matter because you have to wait for dawn, but the sun should be just starting to set when you get there. You might have enough time to get the rupees before nightfall (factor in a half heart of damage for each one), but I'm not sure.

@Fox Ooooooh. Wow. Okay. Thanks for clarifying, that will come in handy ;D

You don't lose time picking up those rupees because either way you should make it to talon before the egg hatches. But uh, since you mention the fall damage from the chains, uh, route change, lol. Savewarp after deku take the 1/2 heart from the fall from the chains. It seemed actually a little tricky to take fall damage from that, like, it's barely high enough.

Okay, so I'm now through Segment 42.
-I used the explosive-fish method to damage myself for the Minuet CS skip. I didn't take damage before the RI warp in Shadow and the tektites seemed to be good for taking damage for the Bolero. Equipping the hover boots might speed this up here.
-The chu-hookshot trick works for the Forest Stage GS
-I used a bombchu and did a hookshot jump to reach the first GS in the Forest Temple
-I was able to grab the GS in the right courtyard from the edge right near edge to the water
-You can reach the archery game at night by hookshot clipping the left corner behind the house
-I came up with a route for the Gerudo Token and it was really easy. You enter the one closest to the gate first, then you leave through the other exit and HJ off of the box and enter the loading zone near there. Then you IDJ off of the vine and obtain the GS and the HP and enter to the next area. Then you leave and head back to the vine and head to the final carpenter. (I'll try to make this more detailed soon)
-I did a superslide to the archery GS and did a Sun's Song warp after the receiving the Gerudo Token
-I did a hoverboost and a jumpslash to reach the area with the HP early in the Ice Cavern
-You can (but it's pretty difficult and you need many bombs) skip pushing the block in the silver rupee room with megajumps
-I used the hover boots to damage buffer for the Serenade CS skip so I wouldn't move
-The trick for the claim check does not work because the timer starts immediately upon entering (it sucks I know  :'( ), so should we perhaps get two other poes on the way to him?
-I don't think you can skip that annoying room with an HJ because the ceiling is flat
-I took damage form the GS on the tree and with the hover boots I didn't fall off

UGH. About the claim check trick, did you test it with coming from the crater, assuming the heat timer does override it?
It could be possible that it's just the FW it doesn't work with.


I'll make changes to the route based on the rest of what you'd told me. A couple comments:

- I have a better route for the Windmill if you're damaging with tektites. Also I think I will just damage down all the way to 1/2 heart and use the damn moron tunic. Also I will move the rock wall GS to here so you can have another excuse to blow yourself up.
- Clipping into the archery house is faster than playing Sun's Song, right? I'll change the route for this to be in. If you're wondering what the deal was there, there's a Sun's Song warp after the Twin's House GS now and that vile segment continues until you can deliver the mushroom. It wasn't much of a time saver, so I didn't think it worth it to make that segment longer to include it, but now that I know you can clip in at night, it should save a decent amount of seconds, anyway.
- I don't understand how the Sun's Song warp is helping. The FW back to the training ground should be faster than a Sun's Warp and walking back out...
- Were you able to get the HP w/o blue fire, and where you able to skip the last red ice wall w/o blue fire? It wouldn't be the end of the world if you couldn't.
- The trick jumps I was referring to are where you like, run towards one of the holes, and then turn around at the right time. Link slides to the edge of the hole and jumps but the jump ends up going inward. You should be able to do that in both places where it'd be needed. Maybe you could find a video of this somewhere, IDK.
- How was the timing with fishing while on the eyeball frog timer?

The claim check was tested coming from the crater. If you just FW there the timer runs out before you land, and the timer ran out on literally the first roll.

I'll review the FW warp outside the training grounds. It was night when I got the Gerudo Token, so that's why I went to the skulltula and the Sun's Song warp took place.

I couldn't. The red ice is slightly different on 3d. I'll make sure to double check, however.

I'll start looking over the trick jumps. I must have not read that line or something.

Lol, I suck so bad at fishing that I knew I wouldn't be able to pull it off. I tried it later and it took longer than the timer. Are there any tips on this?

Edit: Trick jumps work. I will have to double check the HP like I said because I got a blue rupee in one area.

Really you have to deliver that thing. Ugh.

My route said to make it day and do the archery first. I guess I dunno for sure if it's faster that way. I'm not sure how time of day is going to work out when you reach the next GS's in zora's river.

So the HP might work maybe, but the last red ice wall isn't skippable? To get the HP they put down a bomb to get some extra collision going. ZFG I think has a video of what he does on normal OoT.

Do you think there was enough time to get everything done, though, if you were able to pull up the fish right away? I'd hate to have to do it on the Eye Drops timer because already I have a lot of things I'd like to get during that, so that'll probably be tight too. It'll be a hell of a segment.

What's the fastest way to walk to Biggoron?