OoT3D: 100% Segmented Discussion [NG+ Saw]

I agree about beating forest before fire because of the DJ. I think we should get bolero, get the prescription, GC -> LW, Minuet skip, forest, LW -> ZR, get skulltulas, Ice Cavern... What do you think?

I think as for big poes, we'll have time to get some after getting epona and as we go from wherever to Gerudo Valley. Not sure when else though.

I also don't think getting the red rock GS's without hammer is necessary since we go form DMC to DC anyways so they're not out of the way.

Gah I just realized how many more hearts you're going to have if you leave the Serenade CS skip until Adult 2. If somebody can tell me for sure that, yeah, you can HSJ using the fence up to the GS in lower ZR, then I'll move it. Tomorrow I gotta give the route one more look over and then I'll post it.

Somebody? Anybody? :(
This is like, the last decision I need to make...

Here's a seg'd NG route for the whole game. There's a lot of things that need to be tested, a lot of things that need to be timed, and a lot of things that sound really iffy. RI'ing bombs so you can RI FW to damage buffer? What? What else was I supposed to do. :/

http://pastebin.com/uiYHw4dK

If you have questions about any decisions I've made be sure to ask -- maybe whatever-it-was was a mistake on my part? Lemme know if there are tricks I don't know about to save time or if you have ideas for improvements. I'm not going to route explosives or equips. That's kinda too deep to go when you don't even own the game, lol. Maybe some day somebody should do a test run of the route and make sure it's working properly and also maybe to find time of day optimizations. Time of day is hard >_>.

There's a lot to go over with this route, so I'll update this reply regularly.

First of all, I'm pretty sure that the RI FW buffer does not work. There is literally no pause lag unless you press the home button on the 3ds. I like how you routed the Spirit Temple, I think that it is really interesting.

Oh yeah, with a bottled fish you can take two hits of damage from a bomb. Instead of six bombs for Prelude, it could be 4 bombs used.

As for the thing with the Net, he still regrabs it. It might be possible, but I don't have a file where I can test this.

Then I guess it'll be 6 RI'd bombs. I mean I really don't know what else to do with that. It was all I could do to even get down the 3 hearts... Actually you could probably RI FW to buffer once per bomb at least? Maybe if you place all three bombs in row and then do it back to back to back you could still do it kinda fast.

I mention it on the route but there's a trick that could make the Spirit route a little better. If you can get to the key in the lower child side GS room the same way they do on normal OoT, what you'll do instead is cast FW in the Anubis room, and then head down to the main room that way instead of solving the mirror puzzle. After getting that key I mentioned, you'd FW back, and BK skip. You'd have to cast FW an extra time to CS skip, which is why it wouldn't save quite as much time as you might think at first glance. Maybe 15 seconds. Oh and that route should say that you get the mirror shield after leaving again, since you have to get close to the entrance to get the chest to drop. I didn't forget that, I messed up when I typed it up somehow.

One thing that kinda sucks with the route is that your free bomb refills, the 30 and 40 bags, are at terrible times. 30 is soon after bombs and 40 is very near the end. Depending on how many drops you need, it might be reasonable to give up a time-saver (give up the time saved from one of the FW's back to the poe collector, say) and head for child 2 earlier. But I'm not routing the explosives.

Updated the NG+ route.

Before ben says anything, I did a little mental timing and figured that it probably isn't worth going to Forest after Biggoron Sword just to do a hookshot jump that saves... what, 5 seconds? The time saved by using Biggorons Sword on PG should be more than the time saved by the hookshot jump. So yeah, we go to Fire, then use the shortcut in GC to get to the Lost Woods and then boom. Minuet cs skip and into Forest.

Also, I missed the Tree GS while we were at LLR as child, so that was added.

Just discovered that you can reach the Goron City shop to obtain the Goron Tunic. You have to Backward HSJ/IDJ off of either torch in Darunia's room (You have to be on the side closest to the wall or you will not clip) and land in the main room while it's unloaded.

Given that we need to talk to the Goron in order to get back there, this is kind of irrelevant as we will already have gotten the Goron Tunic. A nice find for the miscellanious Hookshot Jumps though ^_^ Good job Fox

Norkix wrote

Given that we need to talk to the Goron in order to get back there, this is kind of irrelevant as we will already have gotten the Goron Tunic. A nice find for the miscellanious Hookshot Jumps though ^_^ Good job Fox

Eh what. You can get back there without talking to him with just a bomb. Doing this skips talking to him altogether.  :P

Get back there with a bomb? You mean going around through DMC with a megaflip? And if is some kind of clip, I think that with the text boxes going as fast as they do, just talking to him would be faster than setting up the clip and clipping and setting up a precise Hookshot Jump and getting it to work... Plus, iirc, in my route, we don't have any boots when getting Goron Tunic, so this is useless for me anyways. Might be useful in r0bd0gs route though.

You mean you can get back to there from the goron city side? If it's from the DMC side, you'd have to climb the mountain again which might be faster but sounds lame to me. I probably won't have the rupees for it the first time through, so IDK what to do about that. Worst case I make a whole segment out of going and getting it.

I was reading over the route norbix posted and though I think it has quite a few issues still..., it does have some things in it that made me think twice about a couple of decisions I'd made. One was doing shadow in one go. I realized when he didn't use hookshot to get into shadow that in a way I already do two trips because I have to at least get the hookshot before I can complete it. That's only like 15 seconds and not the 40 or so it takes to warp and walk into shadow... But that means the longshot, ice arrows, and bgs need to save less time than they did before. Only 25 seconds, besides the time it takes to megaflip... I couldn't really begin to guess whether or not they do. Somebody should just take a guess for me and I'll change the route to that. Just that one GS in the boat room is probably 10 seconds or more... I'm wondering if I did route it like that, how I could take enough damage for the bolero cs skip that follows. Dead Hand seems like it would damage you way too slowly. And I guess I could get the windmill HP after learning nocturne.

Also I think I could route it to have BGS in forest. I can't really think of a reason not to do that. I will not have to FW to get back to Lost Woods, but I will have to cast again at some point in order to CS skip. Maybe that's an extra FW cast... or maybe not. Maybe I could find some point where I have FW cast to get back to somewhere and I just do Forest then. I need the bow for a lot of things that so I might not be able to do that. I'm not sure the BGS will save the 15 or more seconds it'd take to cast FW an extra time. This makes me think at the least I could skip the FW cast coming out of the lost woods. It should be faster to get lost than to use that FW cast coming in from GC, and then I could do forest after the next FW cast.

I need to double-check if the silver gauntlets warp is a good idea. If it were, I wouldn't have to get requiem in adult 1 anymore so IDK what it would do to the route.

Okay. I just wanted to say that it is possible.

After looking over r0bd0g's route a little (I'm getting pretty sleepy), I realized I've made some very obvious routing mistakes, resulting from the fact that I was routing ahead of my testing (RI FWWW was a bitch, lol). I'm going to fix a few of these tomorrow.

r0bd0g, I have to say that what I read was routed quite well considering that you don't own the game. I always forget to use FW in the overworld since I'm used to not using FW in the overworld, so I'll try to factor in some FW points as well. I will say that I believe the Fire Arrow Pillar GS would be better saved for a later Child part in which you have Serenade.

Can you point out some of the things you disagree with in my route? Anything I've missed along the way? On an average playthrough I get 80-85 GSs, so I need to know where I can cut out backtracking. Some things I have a reason for not getting, however. But please, anything that needs fine-tuning would help greatly. :)

So I take it that's a no for getting to dmc from goron city side without talking to the guy. The problem is the need for magic as child. If I didn't have to get magic until adult then there's be no issue. I'll do some timing and see if I think it's worth it to skip talking to the guy.

As for the fire arrow platform, well, warping takes 20 seconds, and then you still have to get over to the platform. There's a glitch on normal OoT called Superswim. If this glitch still exists on 3D then I think there's no way that warping is faster. If it's not, well, I'll look into it, but there's a good chance you're right. Swimming is slow as molasses and it'd be nice if I didn't have to swim back from that platform. When I was planning the route I was picturing the superswims in my head without really even thinking about if you could do them.

I know that you can do mini superswims with megaflips, but I don't know if the actual one is possible.

Superswims do still work, but doing one from the fishing pond only gets you about 1/3 of the way to the Fire Arrow Islet. I don't know about the time of day in your route, but in mine, it would still be about noon when you got there.

*facepalm*

Hey Norkix, there's this cool thing called the Sun's Song and since time resets after doing Jabu, you could totally get the FAI GS in Child 1.

Well duh! *facepalmfacepalmfacepalm*

No idea what my time of day is. I was thinking you'd just use Sun's if you had to. We're at LH so we might as well clear it out, was my thought. The last time ToD was set was after the Sun's Song CS. I doubt that it will become day before LH, but I have doubts that you'll be able to get over to the fire arrows platform before morning.

Hey R0b, I have a couple of things that I noted from your route. These are just quick notes I took. I'm not quite done with them yet though.

20. You can peahat HESS. Not sure if it is faster.
46. no owl skip
60. What is switch trick?
127. Is Zelda's letter trick
180. You have to push the block I think
250. I believe spike trap jump still works
263. I'm gonna say that the clip is faster
287. Or... I know this wastes a little time, but we could possibly just put on the tunic if all else fails :P
308. There is a song of time block clip that might be faster. Not sure though

Switch trick is when you backflip onto a pressure-sensitive (blue) switch and pull out an item like Zelda's Letter or Magic Beans just before you land. This causes the cutscene from pulling out the item to interrupt the cutscene of the switch being depressed, but the unlocking cutscene still plays. If the door is close enough, you can run to it and get through before the game realizes that the switch is not depressed. It's most notable use is in IJJB, in which it is used to skip Big Octo. It's similar to what you do for FWWW, except with a cutscene item and you backflip onto a switch.

20 - It's not. Doing a HESS won't make the Cucco hatch any faster. I even go and waste a bit of daylight by getting all the chain rupees.
46 - You mean you can't skip the owl coming from SFM? It was possible on normal OoT. You have to get the slow walk into the loading zone so that you don't walk into the trigger right away, I think? Normally they would do a ground jump but IDK why the alternating sword/stick think wouldn't work? It doesn't matter b/c this segment is too hard.
60 - In the baby dodongo corridor there's a switch you push an armos onto. I tried it on normal OoT and I was able to skip having to push that armos, but who knows what's different and what isn't.
127. OK.
180. It's tight on normal OoT, especially as child? You're sure you can't make it? If the bars just barely close, maybe if you backflipped out IDK.
250. OK.
263. You're remembering that if you clip you have to wait for the wall to close in before you can leave the room? I doubt you could reorder the rooms to end the seg here or FW out or something.
287. But then you have to play through the rest of the game with that ugly tunic on. :p You know, if I decide to split shadow, I have no idea how to go about taking damage for this.
308. The normal OoT 100% route says to play the song of time. Maybe it was something they were debating or maybe they timed it or maybe the route is in error, IDK. I went with it, anyway.

Thanks for the input!

I was thinking about a route where you'd wait until you have BGS to do forest and realized why that couldn't work. I need to have the bow before broken sword to get started on the Big Poes. Still no idea whether or not to split shadow. I guess I'll split it if anybody can think of a good way to take damage between going adult and the bolero cs skip. The shadow goop is probably slow too but everything else I think of sounds worse.

Today I realized that I somehow am getting the BGS before the broken sword, lol. Oops. I'll untangle that mess but it'll need a new big poe route. I'm not sure I'll be able to find a good route that has 2 free bottles for ice cavern. I want to know if I'm safe to bottle-dupe my deku nuts in this game? I know exactly where I'll get a drop to get my nuts back in case they're needed for Volvagia.

You can bottle dupe your deku nuts with the backflip method as long as there's zero of them. You can also use a bottled fish and bombchus against Volvagia if you feel like it.

whats this about Volvagia?

I'm hoping to shield swipe dupe the nuts, actually? It'd be too slow to empty them out. Anyway what I needed to know is if you can get nuts back in your inventory by picking up a drop like you can in normal OoT. If I dupe over the nuts and can't get them back, I can't get 100%.

You can get the deku nuts back, I just tested it.

Norkix wrote

whats this about Volvagia?

Basically there are 2 Volvagia's: the one you hit on the head and the one that flies around. While either of these 2 Volvagia's are in the lava holes, you can put bombs on top of the holes they went into to damage them. You can also use chus so a fish can be used to blow up the chus.

WHY WAS I NOT TOLD OF THIS BEFORE

Norkix wrote

WHY WAS I NOT TOLD OF THIS BEFORE

It's pretty new, even on console I kinda just found out about it from R0b. I knew there was a strategy with bombs but I sidn't know how it worked :P

http://pastebin.com/AANNr5Xq

Unless I made another really dumb mistake, then I probably won't be posting any more routes. (There are small mistakes for sure -- I see already where I didn't count the rupees you get on the first Poe drop-off.)

Changes:
- Fixed a dumb mistake with supposedly doing the adult trade quest out of order. Had to reroute the big poes as a result. Not sure if the big poe route is going to be any good.
- Opted to move the Fire Arrow platform GS to Child 2 on the assumption that you can't get that GS quickly enough to get it in Child 1.
- Changed the other child WW to go to the Silver Gauntlet's CS. It's close whether or not that's worth it. I think there's a good chance it is. I didn't originally think it was but then I realized you would never have to watch the Desert Colossus intro CS.
-- Had to change the Fish/Bug route as a result. You have to get a fish from a grotto now, which is kinda slow. I was able to improve the bugs route by a bit.
-- I was also able to save some seconds on the Fire CS Skip as a result of how we'll go to Nayru's after Spirit Temple instead of before.
- Noticed a way to save a few seconds by using less FW in adult Lost Woods.

I'll look over it on Friday. May take some notes as well, given the generally positive feedback you've gotten. From what I've seen just from skimming through, it seems that you've made a very good effort on the Big Poe route, but again, I only skimmed. I might steal some dungeon routes as well; a few of the dungeons can definitely benefit from your segmented approach. I'll have to do a little bit of research into tricks you mention that I don't know about. For example, this shieldswipe thing and the method for getting the Skulltulas behind the red rocks on DMT. I also like your routing of Child 1. If you don't mind me continuing to rip you off, I might try to rebuild my own Child 1 based on yours.

There are really two things that I see affecting the final time of a seg'd run: How much time the NG+ Saw saves and how much time flipping back and forth through time saves. The dungeon routes will probably be very similar (excepting Shadow, since I've decided to do that after getting Nocturne legit or at least sometime after Forest so I can grab the Quiver upgrade in KV), but the overworld routes will be vastly different due to NG+ skipping the trading quest routing entirely.

I commend you for writing that entire route purely from theory. I'd do your testing for the night/day stuff, but it appears I may have some massive revision to do. I hope Fox or maybe LttpMmOot will run through it for you. Once again, major kudos, r0bd0g!