Any% segmented run (goal of sub-1 hour)

Runnerguy2489 wrote

Hey guys,

If you are bored and want to try something out for me, check out this video.

Basically, I'm trying to get a position and angle where I can just sidehop and then mash the hookshot button, and end up right on the edge of the post and be able to get to the other side.

As you can see I got very close for the red dot to appear, but it's just not quite enough. I've tried adjusting my position a little and still couldn't find a spot, but it seems likely that it's possible. This would make this segment a lot easier, so even if it takes a few seconds like this did to align and get in the position, it's definitely worth it.

This is 2 segments away, so it won't apply for a while, but I figured I'd post it now if anyone wanted to try it.

Here's my method I came up with, maybe you guys can mess around with it and prevent from having to do the "turn-around" trick.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fFBATYmfco

did you actually get it to work though? >_>

Lexkeeta wrote

did you actually get it to work though? >_>

I'm very out of practice with the turn-around trick, I'll leave it to Runnerguy or someone else to do :P

hi there
didn't read here for quite some time; runnerguy will you stream more 'oot practise'? if yes please announce it, would love to watch ;-)

Sure I can announce the next time I do that. It will always just be practice though since it was making the recording lag since I use a capture card. So no real attempts.

aleckermit wrote

I'm very out of practice with the turn-around trick, I'll leave it to Runnerguy or someone else to do :P

press z, pause immediately afterwards and hold back

thats an easy way to do it

I didn't test this, but if you didn't actually get to the other side, how can you be sure this works? Remember the goal isn't to safely land on the edge of the post, it's to land on the pixel where you can make it across (the pixel you normally would get to with the turn-around trick.

You definately have the right idea, though. It would be so much more consistent if you found an area near there that puts you on the pixel so that you don't have to mash hookshot.

ZFG wrote

Yes, but its slower because crouch stabs with jumpslash power does 4 damage each and quickspins only 2 each.

And wouldn't quickspins cause more lag?

No, not really.

GlitchesAndStuff wrote

you mean like you?   ;D

Heh, yeah my guess would be no one would really want to do it.  ::)

So I did some basic estimates, let me know if this looks on par:

Segment 1:
Opening Scene: 2 seconds

Segment 2:
Sword: 75 seconds (1:15), taken from my run to the sword.

Segment 3:
Shield: 52 seconds, taken from my old run

Segment 4:
Forest escape including owl text (bridge clip method is fastest since ocarina loses it's main purpose): 124 seconds (2:04), taken from an old test I did with the bridge clip.
To Zora's River: 29 seconds (no need for peahat superslide in such a tough segment, plus time saved is so small even if performed perfectly). I took this from an old run of mine.
Slash bushes for rupees, rock clip, get bean: 47 seconds, taken from pokey's vid, and added 7 seconds for bush slashes and set up of HESS + another 5 seconds if more rupees from rocks are needed (which is likely).
Scale river, get the 20 rupee near the octo, you'll need cucco as well: 1:00, taken from my old run + 5 seconds to get the red rupee.
Diving game to ruto bottle: 2:15, tested this myself, picked up the blue rupee near the shop on the way back up (+30 rupees - 5 from the jar and 25 for winning the diving game).
Bottle to King: 1:43
King to owl (plant bean too), to market, get 60 from bridge, DoT: 3:03, I timed this myself, this will give you 90 rupees and you can buy hylian shield
DoT Skip and become adult: 6:10, from my current run.

WE BECOME ADULT AT ~19:39

Compared to my current run at 17:06.

It takes 2:50 from pocket cucco to hookshot, including getting the hylian shield. So after 5 segments...

New way: 19:39 + whatever in segment 5 to pocket cucco
Current way: 17:06 + 2:50 + whatever in segment 5 to pocket cucco

So that's 19:56 currently and 19:39 hookshot skip way. This is after 5 segments.

~*ALL OF THE FOLLOWING IS JUST ESTIMATES*~

You will become an adult with between 10 and 19 rupees. You need 50 to fish, buy arrows, and buy deku stick. This will take a few seconds to get the red rupee by the Big Poe guy twice.

Now, assuming the play is on GCN, that means the next 3 segments (my 6, 7, and 8 ) must be combined. A deku stick must also be collected for segment 9.

That almost certainly means only one bomb drop for cube. Honestly, I'm crazy for trying to get as many bomb drops as I am...there's no way this 12 or 15 or however long it is minute segment is going to be able to do it...no way.

The cube must use the bombs in:
1) GC warp (unless you want to go back through Hyrule, but even then it's a megaflip)
2) rock on Death Mountain
3) fairy fountain explosion
4) megaflip gerudo bridge (ISG can be done on sign)
5) beamos for more bombs

Just off the top of my head:
2 superslides across hyrule: 10 seconds each
2 pressure jumps: 10 seconds each
SS from hyrule to Gerudo: about 15 seconds?
A few other smaller superslides probably add up to 10 seconds
No hookshot in Goron City: 10 seconds twice
No hookshot climb fence quickly in Kokiri forest: 10 seconds twice
buying the deku stick: 15 seconds? Even more if you have to sit through the text
You save 17 seconds from fisherman text being faster...you probably also don't lose the 20 seconds the savewarp gives since you will get to the fishing pond quicker and you may be able to get back to Kakariko before daylight (if not then it's even more time lost).

= +20 +20 +15 +10 +20 +20 +15 -17 = 1:43 added to the cube run through segment 9 (getting all the medallions). After this the runs converge. Each will have light arrows and should have one bomb left to blow up the beamos and get more.

GCN slower by 1:26 according to these calculations. Give it 30 seconds of lag in the last segment and it's still nearly a minute slower.

Someone will have to prove this incorrect (which is entirely possible) or find gerudo bridge skip no ISG on a console (good luck since a lot of TAS guys couldn't even do it with their TAS abilities). Otherwise, I'm continuing my run.

Wasn't the only bridge skip video done without ISG on console?

Kazooie's had this one for a while:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuDcK_3bPAM

But you might be right, KlydeStorm never said I just assumed from the graphics on his video. It's possible he just used savestates for ease of starting the trick again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EU27ZETHNjo

EDIT: You are right, I asked and he said it was just savestates to get the position.

It's going to be really close in my opinion. The first part up to adult is the same. So that's an edge of about 17 seconds for the hookshot skip method, plus another 17 seconds for the fast fisherman text. It will then lose 20 seconds for hookshot in Goron City twice and probably 15 seconds for climbing the ladder after pressure jump twice. You will gain a little from not having to play the ocarina although that's only a few seconds. Same with catching a bug, only you'd lose that couple. That's going to make it +/- 5 to 10 seconds either way. Not to mention that segment 4 is hell...bridge clip, rock clip, lots of shit and then end with DoT skip. I think it's still going to be best to continue with my current run.

What are everyone's thoughts on that?

Runnerguy2489 wrote

What are everyone's thoughts on that?

I think you should stick with your current route, that stuff sounds very iffy and could end up being a huge pain for just a second saved, or possibly even slower. Even so, I think it would be nice if someone would do a "sloppy" TAS on that new route to see what kind of time it gets. By sloppy I mean mimic what a human speedrunner would be capable of.

Either way I don't think it will save much time... not enough to scrap your run(which is going awesome btw).

On console it would probably save barely any time at all.  We want the run done eventually and I'm sure you don't want to do that hellish seg 4 so just continue with your run right now.  For TAS though I'm sure its faster.

Yeah seems like both are pretty much the same on console. And since segment 4 would be hell you wouldn't be able to optimize it as well as you can in your current run. So it probably would come out slower than what you are doing at the moment. So keep on doing what you are doing. ^^

well, i did some timing/calculations, and i actually found out that, if you could manipulate 2 bomb drops in the hookshot skip route on vc, it'd actually be around 30 seconds faster than the current route. Here are the corrections I found:


-Going through Goron City without the hookshot only wastes 6 seconds each time (not 10 like RG said)
-If you do the pressure jump, not having hookshot to climb the ladder only wastes 2 seconds (maybe less)

So here's what I figure:

Starting after pocket cucco segment with 19:39 on the clock, you would go to the fishing pond to steal the rod, then get sticks on B through the ladder on the way to kakariko (rather than using water). Even if you don't make it to kakariko before day, it still takes 30 seconds to go from ToT to hyrule field anyway, so as long as you make it to kakariko within 30 seconds after daylight, you're fine.

Now for the bomb drops. Since you would manipulate 2 bomb drops in this segment anyway, and stealing the rod doesn't take that long, you would probably manipulate 2 bomb drops in the combined 6, 7, and 8. This means that the only time-wasters would be lacking the hookshot in LW and GC, as well as time wasted buying the deku stick (probably not 15 seconds, i'd have to time that). So even assuming it does waste 15 seconds, you still have this:

6+6+2+2+15-17=14 seconds lost. This means that, since you gain 17 seconds by skipping hookshot, you would save 3 seconds by skipping hookshot even with these subtractions. I'm not sure how much time the smaller superslides waste, I'd have to test that as well. But for our purposes we'll assume it is 10 seconds, so you would lose 7 seconds by skipping hookshot.

BUT, since the run would have to be on VC (since non-isg megaflip bridge skip is impossibly hard on console), you would gain 30+ seconds in the final segment (probably more because VC lags less than GC in the last seg). This means that overall, skipping hookshot and playing on VC gains you around 25 seconds (even more if the smaller superslides + deku stick collection don't actually waste as much time as we think they will).

However, I still think RG should continue with his run. 25 seconds isn't that much time, and I'm sure RG doesn't want to have to restart the entire thing and do that hellish seg 4 after all he's been through.

If anyone sees any errors in my calculations above please let me know.

ING-X wrote

-If you do the pressure jump, not having hookshot to climb the ladder only wastes 2 seconds (maybe less)

That seems off... hookshotting the ladder correctly gets you right to the top and you actually don't even have to climb the ladder at all (RG did it wrong in his "meh seg 7"). At least 4-6 seconds difference I would think.

aleckermit wrote

That seems off... hookshotting the ladder correctly gets you right to the top and you actually don't even have to climb the ladder at all (RG did it wrong in his "meh seg 7"). At least 4-6 seconds difference I would think.

yeah i think it is 4 seconds then.

ING-X wrote

-Going through Goron City without the hookshot only wastes 6 seconds each time (not 10 like RG said)

I stand by 10 seconds after having just compared my "meh seg 7" vid to going through GC as Child Link in my old segment 12. It took 12 seconds from my explosion to exiting to get out with hookshot. It took Child Link 22 seconds. The difference here between child and adult is minimal, unless there is a ledge somewhere adult link can climb that I'm missing.

Climbing the ladder has already been determined to take longer than 2 seconds.

Good luck manipulating 2 bomb drops. I think you are really underestimating how long this takes and by saying "steal rod doesn't take that long". Yes, it does. It means you aren't even going to have a chance at the bomb drops until after 6 minutes of gameplay. I get a chance every 3 minutes and went about 4 hours and got 2 bomb drops twice.  And if you think, even with the 5 extra bomb drops, that you are going to hit 4 superslides (probably save one for gerudo valley segment) in a 14 minute segment after having the extreme luck manipulation you had...it's just not going to happen. If you miss one not only did you lose the time on the superslide, but the time it took to set up.

Runnerguy2489 wrote

I stand by 10 seconds after having just compared my "meh seg 7" vid to going through GC as Child Link in my old segment 12. It took 12 seconds from my explosion to exiting to get out with hookshot. It took Child Link 22 seconds. The difference here between child and adult is minimal, unless there is a ledge somewhere adult link can climb that I'm missing.

Climbing the ladder has already been determined to take longer than 2 seconds.

Good luck manipulating 2 bomb drops. I think you are really underestimating how long this takes and by saying "steal rod doesn't take that long". Yes, it does. It means you aren't even going to have a chance at the bomb drops until after 6 minutes of gameplay. I get a chance every 3 minutes and went about 4 hours and got 2 bomb drops twice.  And if you think, even with the 5 extra bomb drops, that you are going to hit 4 superslides (probably save one for gerudo valley segment) in a 14 minute segment after having the extreme luck manipulation you had...it's just not going to happen. If you miss one not only did you lose the time on the superslide, but the time it took to set up.

well i never said it would be an easy segment. actually i just found out that you can manipulate 2 bomb drops from the second set of bushes alone, which takes away the 10 seconds lost by not having 3 bomb drops. it would be very hard, but it's possible.

ING-X wrote

well i never said it would be an easy segment. actually i just found out that you can manipulate 2 bomb drops from the second set of bushes alone, which takes away the 10 seconds lost by not having 3 bomb drops. it would be very hard, but it's possible.

Only if you are able to hit 5/5 with whatever you are using those bombs for in a 14 minute segment, along with the other 8 or so bombs you'd have to use in the segment as well. And that's even assuming you go for one bomb drop and then get 2 out of the bushes in LW, something that's probably < 1/100 chance of happening. It's not going to happen. "Very hard" doesn't begin to describe it.

The TAS of this game is also possible, there's a reason it's a TAS though.

Runnerguy2489 wrote

Only if you are able to hit 5/5 with whatever you are using those bombs for in a 14 minute segment, along with the other 8 or so bombs you'd have to use in the segment as well. And that's even assuming you go for one bomb drop and then get 2 out of the bushes in LW, something that's probably < 1/100 chance of happening. It's not going to happen. "Very hard" doesn't begin to describe it.

The TAS of this game is also possible, there's a reason it's a TAS though.

yeah you have a point there - that whole segment would be basically luck-manipulation which would probably take weeks to do.

damn, why did nintendo have to make the vc version 1.2 instead of 1.0 D:

ING-X wrote

yeah you have a point there - that whole segment would be basically luck-manipulation which would probably take weeks to do.

damn, why did nintendo have to make the vc version 1.2 instead of 1.0 D:

blame the muslims and the guys who complained about the red blood.

ok, well i managed to get non-isg megaflip bridge skip on console the other day, so i did some calculations with the bean route on n64:

as it turns out, it's around 30 seconds faster to go down zora's river than to talk to the owl if you're getting gold scale. so after getting pocket cucco, we have (estimated):


19:09 for bean route
19:56 for hookshot route


so already bean route is about 47 seconds faster than hookshot method. now let's take into account the next seg:

it takes around 10 seconds to talk to the scarecrow, play the song twice, and watch the scarecrow coming out of the ground cutscene. this means that's 10 seconds of wasted time (since the game clock doesn't tick during those 10 seconds, so you can't use them to wait until dawn). take into account the 17 seconds saved from the faster fisherman text, and now we have 1 minute and 14 seconds advantage for the bean route.

only thing left is the lack of hookshot in goron city and lost woods. since megaflipping back onto the bridge, then going to kakariko through hyrule field is about the same as hookshotting through goron city, you would obviously do that to avoid wasting 10 seconds. so that means you only waste the 10 seconds in gc once (1 minute and 4 seconds for bean route over hookshot route).

now for the ladder. it wastes ~5 seconds to not have hookshot to climb the ladder, and that will happen twice. so that's another 10 seconds (54 seconds for bean route).

even though the non-isg megaflip bridge skip will have to be buffered even in a segmented run (believe me, it's hard enough already without having to jerk the control stick from down-left to down-right and press a both on the same frame, which is WAY harder than it sounds since it has to be JUST the right frame), it'll still be around the same speed as doing the hookshot method (maybe faster). so i'm gonna say bean route is around 50 seconds faster than hookshot route.

i'd still recommend rg to continue with his run (seriously, he's going through enough already with seg 7 and i'm sure he doesn't want to do that hellish seg 4), but this would be an interesting run for someone to tackle sometime in the future (i'm already making plans for it :D)

ING-X wrote

as it turns out, it's around 30 seconds faster to go down zora's river than to talk to the owl if you're getting gold scale. so after getting pocket cucco, we have (estimated):

ING, dude, where are you getting this from? If you personally haven't tested it, then I just can't take your word for it.

Time it took from after King's text to right outside DoT (using Zora's River): 2:47 (I even fudged this down since it would be slightly faster than my mock run of it on a speedrun) assuming it's daylight and I collect 40 rupees on chains
Time it takes from after King's text (using owl): 3:03 also assuming daylight.

Don't know where the 30 seconds is coming from OR where the gold scale is coming from...I thought it was silver scale that was collected? Actually, you are definitely confusing something in this route...because:

ING-X wrote

take into account the 17 seconds saved from the faster fisherman text

Which only happens if you DON'T get the gold scale.

AND even if it does take off 30 seconds...you still have to plant the bean. On the way to the owl? No problem, it's a 5 second detour. From the ruto bottle? Quite a detour, it takes ~25 seconds to go out, plant it, and get back in the water.

Runnerguy2489 wrote

ING, dude, where are you getting this from? If you personally haven't tested it, then I just can't take your word for it.

Time it took from after King's text to right outside DoT (using Zora's River): 2:47 (I even fudged this down since it would be slightly faster than my mock run of it on a speedrun) assuming it's daylight and I collect 40 rupees on chains
Time it takes from after King's text (using owl): 3:03 also assuming daylight.

Don't know where the 30 seconds is coming from OR where the gold scale is coming from...I thought it was silver scale that was collected? Actually, you are definitely confusing something in this route...because:Which only happens if you DON'T get the gold scale.

AND even if it does take off 30 seconds...you still have to plant the bean. On the way to the owl? No problem, it's a 5 second detour. From the ruto bottle? Quite a detour, it takes ~25 seconds to go out, plant it, and get back in the water.

lol, you completely misunderstood my post XD

mrgrunz tested this, and said that if you get the silver scale (which you do in this route), it saves 30 seconds to go down the river compared to talking to the owl. if you get the gold scale (which you DON'T in this route), it only saves around 10 seconds.

edit: hm i guess i made a typo in my last post. i typed gold scale when i meant to type silver :P

So when is the bean planted?

Runnerguy2489 wrote

So when is the bean planted?

right after getting ruto bottle.

Right, and that takes 25 seconds extra than it would from the owl way. Do you see what I mean or not?

Runnerguy2489 wrote

Right, and that takes 25 seconds extra than it would from the owl way. Do you see what I mean or not?

hm, i think grunz took that into account when he timed the owl vs the river. i would ask him about it, he probably knows more than i do about this whole thing.

This is why I still believe cucco bottle with bean route is fastest.

nvm, I did some rough timing and silver scale route definitely looks fastest.