Last edited 01 Aug 2011, 07:33 by ZFG.
Just wanted to say that Runnerguy2489 has posted a video of segment 15 in case anyone missed it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_nfevCko2w
Also want to point out if anyone is thinking of doing a segment after this one then the scarecrow song is C left, C right, C left, C right, C left, C right, C left, C right in case anyone did not see it in the video
Also want to point out if anyone is thinking of doing a segment after this one then the scarecrow song is C left, C right, C left, C right, C left, C right, C left, C right in case anyone did not see it in the video
Last edited 01 Sep 2011, 00:08 by Strongfox.
It's on ZeldaSpeedRunsDotCom youtube now: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOyaerfO0CQ
Of course, like a lot of segments, anyone is free to try and beat it (fishing can be improved if you are patient enough), but having the extra bomb drop is huge, it allows us to save time on future segments.
Also, for anyone looking to try segment 16 (it is correct on the routes page) here's the Wii Save: http://www.mediafire.com/?3nu3dv4x75jqje5
Of course, like a lot of segments, anyone is free to try and beat it (fishing can be improved if you are patient enough), but having the extra bomb drop is huge, it allows us to save time on future segments.
Also, for anyone looking to try segment 16 (it is correct on the routes page) here's the Wii Save: http://www.mediafire.com/?3nu3dv4x75jqje5
I find it sad that we never get the silver scale in the 100% route.
Nice segmnt rg, and great bomb drops.
Nice segmnt rg, and great bomb drops.
So I think we should have more of these: discussions of strats when we get to a new segment. Already between ZFG and I there have been times the other has had slower strats and worked hard on a segment. We both agree we don't want this to happen again.
So for segment 16 I came up with this: http://www.justin.tv/runnerguy2489/b/294030932
It's just a recording from an emulator where I used savestates until bubbles were out of my way and I did everything the way I wanted. So to anyone, do you see spots where better strats could be used? I don't know if the backwalking/backflipping in the 2nd room is really worth it. I always used two backwalks in the main room with Ruto over my head, I've seen some just backwalk once and walk to the door. Let's discuss, either here or in #zelda
So for segment 16 I came up with this: http://www.justin.tv/runnerguy2489/b/294030932
It's just a recording from an emulator where I used savestates until bubbles were out of my way and I did everything the way I wanted. So to anyone, do you see spots where better strats could be used? I don't know if the backwalking/backflipping in the 2nd room is really worth it. I always used two backwalks in the main room with Ruto over my head, I've seen some just backwalk once and walk to the door. Let's discuss, either here or in #zelda
hey this is my best and i'm kinda happy with it until someone beats it, it is definitely improvable by 2-3 seconds (notably i get hit by the jellyfish at the end and a couple backwalks could be better) but im sick of the luck in this segment. it's 4:45 from reset to save, which i think is a couple seconds slower than RG's test thing, but he does backwalks through bubbles that i refuse to even consider doing so whatever. the best i could imagine getting is 4:42.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teyoyjGqdfQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teyoyjGqdfQ
Last edited 05 Sep 2011, 23:47 by joe.
Just wondering - are you sure duping an actual bottle over Ruto's letter is SDA-legal? It could be argued that you don't actually obtain the bottle until you show the letter to King Zora, because it's in an unusable letter-in-a-bottle-quest-item state, and duping over it just removes the letter bottle and creates a glitched empty bottle that doesn't count towards completion, so you technically don't complete all the quest steps required to legitimately acquire the bottle.
It could be argued that you don't actually obtain the bottle until you show the letter to King Zora, because it's in an unusable letter-in-a-bottle-quest-item state
There are two ways to obtain the bottle: Show King Zora or dupe over it (you could RBA the slot as well I suppose). Likewise, there are two ways to obtain the golden scale, hold Z as a child with a 6+ fish or go as adult and catch the big fish you are supposed to. We do the faster of the two in both cases.
so you technically don't complete all the quest steps required to legitimately acquire the bottle.
Out of order in your message but I wanted to address this one next. Yes, we do not complete all the quest steps to get the bottle. We also do not complete the quest steps to get the golden scale either. Or epona. Or many of the main quest either (Darunia never dances, we don't even see or talk to Nabooru until she is an IK in the spirit temple, etc.). The quest itself is not what matters, it's the end item you are searching for. Keep in mind also RBA was never banned from 100% - it just also deletes many things and so is not practical in 100%.
and duping over it just removes the letter bottle and creates a glitched empty bottle that doesn't count towards completion
It actually is not a glitched bottle if it's in the bottle slots - it was obtained through a glitch but it is not a glitched bottle (again, like the golden scale was obtained through a glitch). The game cannot tell the difference between an empty bottle in slot 2 you got from duping or an empty bottle in slot 2 after talking to King Zora. They are the same thing. I would say that it therefore does count to the final completion.
I don't think it's comparable to any other items really. The Gold Scale etc. are fully functional items, the letter bottle is useless until it's emptied. I don't think it matters whether the game can tell the difference, either - 100% isn't game-defined, the players agree on a sensible definition. Also, "glitched bottle" was supposed to mean "obtained through a glitch" in this case. The point is, as I understand it, that it's an entirely new and illegitimate bottle that replaces the quest item you're supposed to turn into a legitimate bottle, and yes, this does matter in a 100% run, just like you have to get all 100 legitimate Skulltulas Tokens. Otherwise, you might as well not get Ruto bottle at all and instead glitch some placeholder item onto the bottle slot, then dupe a bottle over it (no idea if that's possible, it's just an example to explain my reasoning). I'm fully aware there are other ways to interpret 100%, but the question is mainly whether SDA agrees with your definition, since this probably didn't come up when the current 100% run was discussed because King Zora skip wasn't used/known.
That is like saying you have to drink the Lon Lon Milk from the Talon bottle to have it be a "real bottle". Just because you can't catch anything in the bottle doesn't mean you never had it, it just means it is full.
A note about GS tokens: we ARE allowed to dupe as many as we want provided we get all real tokens too. In fact, we almost did this in the route, as we had 49 GS going into the house of skulltula and one more would save us a trip. Also see the Metroid Prime 2 100% run that hasn't gone up on the site yet (but was accepted), where the runner actualy gets 101% because he duped a missile expansion to save time on an early fight. Basically, extra glitched items are fine as long as you get the originals too. In this case, the "glitched" bottle we get replaces a bottle we already had. At the end of the run, it is indistinguishable from a normal bottle, just as getting gold gauntlets and skipping silver gauntlets is indistinguishable from getting both.
Finally, SDA takes most of its definitions from the communities, assuming there is a logical reason for them. There are much more hotly contested points, like whether or not a run should get all dungeon maps/compasses/boss keys, but in the end the community just had to choose a stance. To be honest, there is a bit of ends-justifying-means when creating rulesets, but that is just how it is.
A note about GS tokens: we ARE allowed to dupe as many as we want provided we get all real tokens too. In fact, we almost did this in the route, as we had 49 GS going into the house of skulltula and one more would save us a trip. Also see the Metroid Prime 2 100% run that hasn't gone up on the site yet (but was accepted), where the runner actualy gets 101% because he duped a missile expansion to save time on an early fight. Basically, extra glitched items are fine as long as you get the originals too. In this case, the "glitched" bottle we get replaces a bottle we already had. At the end of the run, it is indistinguishable from a normal bottle, just as getting gold gauntlets and skipping silver gauntlets is indistinguishable from getting both.
Finally, SDA takes most of its definitions from the communities, assuming there is a logical reason for them. There are much more hotly contested points, like whether or not a run should get all dungeon maps/compasses/boss keys, but in the end the community just had to choose a stance. To be honest, there is a bit of ends-justifying-means when creating rulesets, but that is just how it is.
Last edited 06 Sep 2011, 18:37 by RingRush.
in the matter of getting bottles through glitches, wouldn't the poe bottle be also skippable if the 4th slot is filled with a RBAed bottle? it is basically the same logic used for the Ruto Bottle and the other items in that it only matters the end result and not the quest to obtain the item (the rest of the non-bottle items can't be RBAed but the bottles could be and you could create up to 2 or 3 so you only need one of the real ones)
that's why i assumed RBA was banned for 100%.
that's why i assumed RBA was banned for 100%.
hey this is my best and i'm kinda happy with it until someone beats it, it is definitely improvable by 2-3 seconds (notably i get hit by the jellyfish at the end and a couple backwalks could be better) but im sick of the luck in this segment. it's 4:45 from reset to save, which i think is a couple seconds slower than RG's test thing, but he does backwalks through bubbles that i refuse to even consider doing so whatever. the best i could imagine getting is 4:42.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teyoyjGqdfQ
I had posted in someone's stream chat about this segment submission but figured I'd post it here: The jellyfish hit here is really the biggest thing and it's pretty minor, right at the end, hard to avoid, and doesn't cost much time. I like this segment but would encourage people if they are still trying this segment to keep trying and use this as a bar to reach.
in the matter of getting bottles through glitches, wouldn't the poe bottle be also skippable if the 4th slot is filled with a RBAed bottle? it is basically the same logic used for the Ruto Bottle and the other items in that it only matters the end result and not the quest to obtain the item (the rest of the non-bottle items can't be RBAed but the bottles could be and you could create up to 2 or 3 so you only need one of the real ones)
that's why i assumed RBA was banned for 100%.
1. In items you can duplicate (eg Gold Skulltula tokens, bottles), you must get all originals.
2. Your inventory screen at the end must be X,Y,Z.
Duplicating a bottle without getting the original first is banned. Duplicating a bottle if you have the original is fine.
As I said, I don't think the Ruto bottle is comparable to any other items. I don't see a reason to empty the milk bottle because it's fully functional already. And you keep saying it's fine to dupe over bottles you already got - that's just my point though; as long as you haven't shown the letter to KZ, it could be argued that you haven't gotten the bottle yet, but merely a quest item you have to trade in for the real bottle. Again, I'm not here to convince you of my interpretation, I just think you should discuss this over at SDA so you don't run into trouble when you try to submit.
Your examples about getting glitched Tokens and Metroid Prime 2 are unrelated to this, by the way. As long as you get all 100 legitimate Tokens, you can glitch as many additional ones as you want, and as long as the MP2 run gets all legitimate pickups, it can get as many glitched missile tanks as it wants. Interestingly though, even if you did get the real bottle from King Zora, I'm not sure you'd be allowed to dupe another empty bottle over it, since the rules state, as far as I remember, that you need to have all items and upgrades in your inventory at the end of the run, and duping would remove the real bottle. Thus, it's probably a better idea to empty all bottles as intended and not dupe empty ones over them - but that's another topic entirely and, again, I suggest clarifying this over at SDA.
Your examples about getting glitched Tokens and Metroid Prime 2 are unrelated to this, by the way. As long as you get all 100 legitimate Tokens, you can glitch as many additional ones as you want, and as long as the MP2 run gets all legitimate pickups, it can get as many glitched missile tanks as it wants. Interestingly though, even if you did get the real bottle from King Zora, I'm not sure you'd be allowed to dupe another empty bottle over it, since the rules state, as far as I remember, that you need to have all items and upgrades in your inventory at the end of the run, and duping would remove the real bottle. Thus, it's probably a better idea to empty all bottles as intended and not dupe empty ones over them - but that's another topic entirely and, again, I suggest clarifying this over at SDA.
Getting Ruto bottle isn't a quest dude...lol. I'm gonna go back to RingRush's point in which that's like saying you have to drink the milk to make it a bottle. The only way to access that bottle (normally) would be drinking the milk, then you can use it as a normal empty bottle; the only way you can access Ruto bottle (normally) is showing it to King Zora. Once it's in your inventory, (regardless of the state of the bottle) it's in there. So duping is fine.
It could be argued that you haven't gotten the bottle yet, but merely a quest item you have to trade in for the real bottle.
I just think you should discuss this over at SDA so you don't run into trouble when you try to submit.
Finally, SDA takes most of its definitions from the communities, assuming there is a logical reason for them. There are much more hotly contested points, like whether or not a run should get all dungeon maps/compasses/boss keys, but in the end the community just had to choose a stance. To be honest, there is a bit of ends-justifying-means when creating rulesets, but that is just how it is.
Feel free to make a thread or post it somewhere on SDA if it is a concern to you. They've got hundreds of game definitions to worry about and do not know the interworkings of Ocarina of Time like many people do here. Our case would be very easy to present logically (we have done so already here) and even if for whatever reason SDA didn't agree, Ringrush could probably just annoy Mike enough that they would accept it anyway. :P I don't see any problems in terms of technical defintions of this run getting accepted, I'm more worried about some video quality somewhere down the line.
Segment 16 submission, 3 seconds faster than Joe's:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IajCMsLMnWM
Only a couple of seconds improvable with masochistic luck manipulation.
Here is the Seg 17 save file: http://www.mediafire.com/?vl7aly6511mhb6d
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IajCMsLMnWM
Only a couple of seconds improvable with masochistic luck manipulation.
Here is the Seg 17 save file: http://www.mediafire.com/?vl7aly6511mhb6d
Last edited 12 Sep 2011, 05:46 by aleckermit.
New segment 16 submission, 2 seconds faster than my previous:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tU8vMqYPck
Final.
EDIT on 9/13/11: The actual save for seg 17: http://www.mediafire.com/?bw1lcrox8kh21a1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tU8vMqYPck
Final.
EDIT on 9/13/11: The actual save for seg 17: http://www.mediafire.com/?bw1lcrox8kh21a1
Last edited 13 Sep 2011, 22:53 by aleckermit.
First of all you guys do a great job, always a pleasure to see a new segment.
I have one short question, which time do you guys expect\try to beat in the end of this run?
I have one short question, which time do you guys expect\try to beat in the end of this run?
The predicted time (according to ZFG) is about 5:15
While 17 is being worked on, I went ahead and did a segment 18: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_64SPqOqpw
If you would like to try and beat my 18, here is a save file for it: http://www.mediafire.com/?q6wibhikdhbvshh
If you would like to start on 19 assuming my 18 is not beat (time of day passes so it would matter): http://www.mediafire.com/?s69g9d81g3drp22
If you would like to try and beat my 18, here is a save file for it: http://www.mediafire.com/?q6wibhikdhbvshh
If you would like to start on 19 assuming my 18 is not beat (time of day passes so it would matter): http://www.mediafire.com/?s69g9d81g3drp22
Segment 17 Submission: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qwyd2moK20g
Segment 19 Submission: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6NXNb1WsC8
Segment 20 Save: http://www.mediafire.com/?i79bdwuj93uwe06
Segment 19 Submission: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6NXNb1WsC8
Segment 20 Save: http://www.mediafire.com/?i79bdwuj93uwe06
Last edited 07 Dec 2011, 06:15 by Pheenoh.
my submission for segment 20
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItgBkNiEtko
segment 21 save
http://www.mediafire.com/?rjc46rnha4utfpy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItgBkNiEtko
segment 21 save
http://www.mediafire.com/?rjc46rnha4utfpy
seg 21 submission http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcI9xSaudWM
seg 22 submission http://youtu.be/ai8Ww5g155g
seg 23 save http://zeldaspeedruns.com/files/100saves/seg23.bin
seg 23 save http://zeldaspeedruns.com/files/100saves/seg23.bin
Segment 23 submission : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7vIGn34jzE
Last edited 07 Dec 2011, 06:16 by Pheenoh.
In segment 14, is it possible to lob bombs over the rocks to save some time?