Then I disagree with all bird statues, slows the game down for no gain whatsoever. They don't add to Link's inventory. ITEMS CLOUDMAX, WE'RE COLLECTING ALL ITEMS xP.
Last edited 08 Dec 2011, 22:18 by aleckermit.
Then I disagree with all bird statues, slows the game down for no gain whatsoever. They don't add to Link's inventory.
They don't add to links inventory, but it is something you unlock and can be used permanently.
It is like saying that warp songs in other games are useless. You could argue that this isn't the case since there is so many bird statues, but then again, how many there is doesn't matter. And what we personally think just slow down the game or what we fell does not matter, that is what you said to me earlier even.
This discussion is getting confusing..
The statues work just like in MM. If we decide on something different here, then we disagree with the MM 100% definition. Warp songs were on teh quest status screen and had fillable spots, statues are overworld items and the maps in MM and SS don't leave a statue spot for you to fill.
I think the Goddess Cubes are kind of dumb. It seems pointless to hit a cube that you're not even going to get treasure from anyways (though some unnecessary cubes might come in handy for buying expensive things from Beedle). It would be like spawning a treasure chest in OoT, and then not opening it. It just seems like a waste of time.
Well, what about golden skulltulas in OoT then ?
Well, what about golden skulltulas in OoT then ?
Like we said earlier, old definitions are broken.
There was apparently someone else who made up definitions after how he wanted them to be back then.
Skulltulas are questionable, and no one has a good answer for why it is required, except that the person who made the definition said that it should be like that.
GS's are required in OoT because they take up a space on the quest status screen alongside teh songs, medallions, etc.
This thread exploded. :/
@ metroid comparison -- the metroid games themselves tell you what 100% is. I don't think it's reasonable to be like "we should get all ammo upgrades here because we have to in metroid" since they work differently and the games themselves treat them with different levels of importance. IMO if we're getting ANY of the useless resellable shit then we should get all of it, but that is clearly stupid.
@ goddess cubes -- small note. the game actually does tell you on the pause menu how many there are left. view info for the cube dowser. I'm not sure if it also counts the chests though (they can be dowsed for too). Make of that what you will but they DO appear on the pause menu in some fashion.
@ dowsing options -- I would say get them. It's kinda dumb but there is a clear justification for it (they appear in your inventory).
@ maps/statues -- I would say go with the standard here. They are not all immediately viewable in your inventory at any point in the game (you have to be in the area). It kinda feels wrong not to get them since they're an important aspect of the game but at the same time I have a hard time justifying getting them. So I dunno, whatever the standard is imo.
@ metroid comparison -- the metroid games themselves tell you what 100% is. I don't think it's reasonable to be like "we should get all ammo upgrades here because we have to in metroid" since they work differently and the games themselves treat them with different levels of importance. IMO if we're getting ANY of the useless resellable shit then we should get all of it, but that is clearly stupid.
@ goddess cubes -- small note. the game actually does tell you on the pause menu how many there are left. view info for the cube dowser. I'm not sure if it also counts the chests though (they can be dowsed for too). Make of that what you will but they DO appear on the pause menu in some fashion.
@ dowsing options -- I would say get them. It's kinda dumb but there is a clear justification for it (they appear in your inventory).
@ maps/statues -- I would say go with the standard here. They are not all immediately viewable in your inventory at any point in the game (you have to be in the area). It kinda feels wrong not to get them since they're an important aspect of the game but at the same time I have a hard time justifying getting them. So I dunno, whatever the standard is imo.
Not requiring GSes in OoT would be dumb.
anyway - I don't know anything about the MM definition, but I know in TP portals are not part of the 100% definition, and I don't see how it's really any different from SS bird statues. the goddess cubes thing seems to be the main thing everyone is split on... I'd much rather see at the very least the cubes being required, and I think theres a point to be made for opening the chests since they appear on the map screen, but that same logic would require all bird statues, so eh.
and yeah - one of each medal makes little sense to me. if we're considering medals part of the 100% definition then we need to get all of them. if we aren't, we get none of them. though it seems to be generally agreed we should get the two life medals. I wanna say you have to equip them too because it doesnt feel like 100% without 20 hearts but it doesn't make too much sense objectively :P
i'd be a little annoyed with dowsing targets mainly because the rupee target is ridiculously out of the way and does basically nothing for you, while the rest are a relatively small deal because they're all right there, so they mean basically nothing to the run.
edit: I had no idea the game tells you how many cubes are left, huh. that seems to make a more solid case for requiring all cubes.
anyway - I don't know anything about the MM definition, but I know in TP portals are not part of the 100% definition, and I don't see how it's really any different from SS bird statues. the goddess cubes thing seems to be the main thing everyone is split on... I'd much rather see at the very least the cubes being required, and I think theres a point to be made for opening the chests since they appear on the map screen, but that same logic would require all bird statues, so eh.
and yeah - one of each medal makes little sense to me. if we're considering medals part of the 100% definition then we need to get all of them. if we aren't, we get none of them. though it seems to be generally agreed we should get the two life medals. I wanna say you have to equip them too because it doesnt feel like 100% without 20 hearts but it doesn't make too much sense objectively :P
i'd be a little annoyed with dowsing targets mainly because the rupee target is ridiculously out of the way and does basically nothing for you, while the rest are a relatively small deal because they're all right there, so they mean basically nothing to the run.
edit: I had no idea the game tells you how many cubes are left, huh. that seems to make a more solid case for requiring all cubes.
Goddess cubes and chests are the same as sea charts and underwater chests in the WW.
I agree with this, and I think it should apply to SS moreso than TWW (I don't agree with not getting all treasure charts since they're tracked in the menu)
I disagree with only getting 1 of each medal though, just because it makes sense to me to have all 20 hearts on display and you'd need both of the Life Medals, so why would you require both life metals but not the duplicates of the other medals, even if you aren't going to use them? I feel this way about the bottles too, even if we don't use them we're grabbing every duplicate of THAT item, so then why aren't we just collecting 1 bottle?
Goddess cubes are confusing to me, since it doesn't make sense to hit a cube and activate a chest that is going to sit there on the map and do nothing with it. So if we're on the ruling of having to collect all the cubes, then I'd also feel that opening all the chests would be required as well, as dumb as that is. I feel the same way about the dungeon maps too, since dungeon maps show which chests you haven't opened I'd feel it necessary to open those chests as well.
I actually agree with getting all the dowsing targets just so it would fill the slot, even if we don't ever use it..
I think upgrading items is really stupid, personally. I think if we have to include it, that it should just be used for items like the bug net, beetle, etc. B-button items.
Disagree with buying the satchel/quiver/bag for upgrading, that honestly feels to me exactly like buying all the shields to upgrade them, or buying options just to upgrade each one to the highest status, it's just stupid. But in the same sense they're linked to your B-button items so it seems weird that we wouldn't upgrade the ammo count as well as the item itself... :/ I just think upgrading is dumb.
Then there's Treasures and bugs, which I don't think has been asked about. It makes sense to me to collect at least 1 of each bug/treasure to fill that slot on your status screen. But hero mode carries that data over from normal mode, so most likely all of these slots would be filled when you start hero mode, so would we still require the person to collect 1 of each bug/treasure?
And saving at each bird statue blah blah fills map space blah. Just throwing stuff around.
Edit:
@ goddess cubes -- small note. the game actually does tell you on the pause menu how many there are left. view info for the cube dowser. I'm not sure if it also counts the chests though (they can be dowsed for too). Make of that what you will but they DO appear on the pause menu in some fashion.
Well this changed my opinion on whether or not we should get all of the cubes, which now I think we should just based on that.
Double Edit:
Yeah I can't find it, I'm selecting the goddess cube dowsing on the status screen and it's not giving me any numbers, just what it does <_< is there a video showing the cube count or something? (I'm on a file that doesn't have them all collected, in fact there's one right in front of my face right now)
Last edited 09 Dec 2011, 01:26 by AniMeowzerz.
I don't have an incomplete file but I can make a vid of it saying there are none left if that helps anything?
edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWywVlLrCm4
dat quality, xsplit hates me
edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWywVlLrCm4
dat quality, xsplit hates me
Last edited 09 Dec 2011, 02:10 by EA.
Ah ok, that's reasonable enough. I thought it would be an actual number counter, but that's good enough knowing "you got them all, you can stop now"
I actually noticed this only after I got them all, I assumed it would give a number counter like it does one of the other ones. (I think it was gratitude crystals?) But yeah either way it does keep track of whether you got them all or not.
Well, then it seems that most people agree that we should get the cubes now.
In the IRC when we talked about it yesterday, most people were against it because you couldn't keep track if you had all the cubes or not.
Now we actually have it in the pause menu.
If chests should be opened or not now is questionable and will probably end up being a decision made out of personal opinions and nothing more. But they do show a huge purple dot on every location on your map, which by some peoples logic would require them. But because they do not give you any useful rewards, they shouldn't be required.
I do not really want to open them, but to me it wouldn't matter if we had to open them, since it only would add like 10-20 minutes to a speedrun at most since we pass almost all the places after we've unlocked the chests.
And I'm still at either no medals (except for heart container ones), or all.
Statues doesn't really bother to me that much to be honest. It is just one of those small things that I want to have completed in my own personal 100% files. If it is part of the speedrunning definition doesn't really matter.
The same goes for rupee dowsing, which I do not even remember how you unlock. And if rupee dowsing isn't required, then heart dowsing shouldn't be either.
In the IRC when we talked about it yesterday, most people were against it because you couldn't keep track if you had all the cubes or not.
Now we actually have it in the pause menu.
If chests should be opened or not now is questionable and will probably end up being a decision made out of personal opinions and nothing more. But they do show a huge purple dot on every location on your map, which by some peoples logic would require them. But because they do not give you any useful rewards, they shouldn't be required.
I do not really want to open them, but to me it wouldn't matter if we had to open them, since it only would add like 10-20 minutes to a speedrun at most since we pass almost all the places after we've unlocked the chests.
And I'm still at either no medals (except for heart container ones), or all.
Statues doesn't really bother to me that much to be honest. It is just one of those small things that I want to have completed in my own personal 100% files. If it is part of the speedrunning definition doesn't really matter.
The same goes for rupee dowsing, which I do not even remember how you unlock. And if rupee dowsing isn't required, then heart dowsing shouldn't be either.
Well, then it seems that most people agree that we should get the cubes now.
In the IRC when we talked about it yesterday, most people were against it because you couldn't keep track if you had all the cubes or not.
Now we actually have it in the pause menu.
I don't mean to alarm you, but most people definitly haven't agreed on accepting cubes in. It seems like most people are against the cubes because they aren't collected and lead to useless chests that wouldn't get opened. With that said though, I do agree that all cubes should be unlocked since they are shown on the menu.
QuoteIf chests should be opened or not now is questionable and will probably end up being a decision made out of personal opinions and nothing more. But they do show a huge purple dot on every location on your map, which by some peoples logic would require them. But because they do not give you any useful rewards, they shouldn't be required.
I do not really want to open them, but to me it wouldn't matter if we had to open them, since it only would add like 10-20 minutes to a speedrun at most since we pass almost all the places after we've unlocked the chests.
This is extremely arbitrary. 100% wouldn't require collecting all chests in dungeons, so why would the goddess cube chests need to be collected? It's adding length for the sake of extending an already huge category.
idk about medals w/e
This is extremely arbitrary. 100% wouldn't require collecting all chests in dungeons, so why would the goddess cube chests need to be collected? It's adding length for the sake of extending an already huge category.
Personal opinions. And we shouldn't compare them with the regular chests in dungeons, since they are very different in many ways.
I'm not saying that the should or shouldn't be opened, I'm just mentioning it.
Also, isn't the purpose of 100% to make a huge category where you do most of the stuff in the game?
Lets just put it this way:
I bring a friend home and tell him that I have 100% in a game.
We start up the game and he checks that map and asks "what are those purple dots?".
I'd answer, "it is chests you can unlock throughout the game, but I haven't opened them, because they do not contain anything useful".
Any person I know would instantly say that I do not have 100% in the game, because I avoid opening these special chests that are marked on the map, simply because I do not find the content useful.
So, from a casual gamers perspective, it would be a part of 100%, no doubt. And for my own personal file, it is a must for the file to be considered 100%.
But when it comes to the 100% definition, the rules will always be different.
And one last time: I am not saying that we should or shouldn't open them. I am just putting it out there so that people can think about it, because some people clearly doesn't. Some people just think "this is not fun and it takes a long time, and therefore we won't do it".
Also, isn't the purpose of 100% to make a huge category where you do most of the stuff in the game?
That's a vague way of defining it. 100% means to complete all significant goals. Things like walking on every pixel or entering every door are obviously excluded because they don't have an effect on the actual gameplay.
Quote
Lets just put it this way:
I bring a friend home and tell him that I have 100% in a game.
We start up the game and he checks that map and asks "what are those purple dots?".
I'd answer, "it is chests you can unlock throughout the game, but I haven't opened them, because they do not contain anything useful".
Any person I know would instantly say that I do not have 100% in the game, because I avoid opening these special chests that are marked on the map, simply because I do not find the content useful.
First of all, lets not let casual players decide on the requirements of a speedrun category. They really don't matter in this case. Secondly, collecting the rupee chests without a need for them is literally pointless. It'd be like breaking every pot or reading every sign. In no other games has been collecting excess rupees been a requirement of 100% and there is little reason to start now. I know that previously the 100% categories were defined with somewhat questionable reasoning, but they all avoid redundancy. That's not a tradition that would be good to break here.
QuoteSo, from a casual gamers perspective, it would be a part of 100%, no doubt. And for my own personal file, it is a must for the file to be considered 100%.
But when it comes to the 100% definition, the rules will always be different.
casual gamers don't have a centralized definition of this speedrun category. We're safe for now.
QuoteAnd one last time: I am not saying that we should or shouldn't open them. I am just putting it out there so that people can think about it, because some people clearly doesn't. Some people just think "this is not fun and it takes a long time, and therefore we won't do it".
I don't want them to be included because they're pointless, not because of how fun it is.
I have a question regarding the goddess cubes in the pause menu.
When you've found all it says that there isn't any cubes left.
Was this done on a file where all chests were opened?
Because on a file that hasn't taken all cubes/chest it tells you that it allows you to dowse for the cubes AND chests, which it does.
Maybe it tells you that there stilla re chests left that hasn't been opened if you haven't opened all?
This would make a big difference in whether or not all the chests should be opened.
If it is mentioned in both the pause menu and on the map, I think we should open them. If not, then we don't.
Because if it turns out that it tells you that there still is chests left to be opened, it would be similar to how you get the last 50 golden skulltulas in OoT.
Both will give you the useless rewards of rupees, but we still get them because it is displayed within the status menu.
I do not see how anyone could avoid this fact. So someone who have a file with all cubes unlocked that still have chests that hasn't been opened yet should check this.
When you've found all it says that there isn't any cubes left.
Was this done on a file where all chests were opened?
Because on a file that hasn't taken all cubes/chest it tells you that it allows you to dowse for the cubes AND chests, which it does.
Maybe it tells you that there stilla re chests left that hasn't been opened if you haven't opened all?
This would make a big difference in whether or not all the chests should be opened.
If it is mentioned in both the pause menu and on the map, I think we should open them. If not, then we don't.
Because if it turns out that it tells you that there still is chests left to be opened, it would be similar to how you get the last 50 golden skulltulas in OoT.
Both will give you the useless rewards of rupees, but we still get them because it is displayed within the status menu.
I do not see how anyone could avoid this fact. So someone who have a file with all cubes unlocked that still have chests that hasn't been opened yet should check this.
Yeah, all the chests were open. As I said in the original post mentioning the dowsing thing, I'm not sure if the tracker includes the chests or not. Someone should check this out for sure.
I'll test this on my hero mode file, gimme a bit
Note: hero mode giving you full skyward strike is unbelievably broken, you can grab so many of these from far away lol
Note: hero mode giving you full skyward strike is unbelievably broken, you can grab so many of these from far away lol
Last edited 09 Dec 2011, 12:10 by AniMeowzerz.
Note: hero mode giving you full skyward strike is unbelievably broken, you can grab so many of these from far away lol
I got a question to ask about that.
How many "levels" of skyward strike are there ? From what i've read there's only two (basic one you have through the first two thirds of normal mode, and advanced one you have in the end, and during whole hero mode), but i've seen on a video someone charging it instantly, while on my hero file I still have to wait a bit (like .2 second), is there a third level you unlock further in the hero mode ? Which would be instant and have even more range ? Cause the one I have still has limited range too.
I got a question to ask about that.
How many "levels" of skyward strike are there ? From what i've read there's only two (basic one you have through the first two thirds of normal mode, and advanced one you have in the end, and during whole hero mode), but i've seen on a video someone charging it instantly, while on my hero file I still have to wait a bit (like .2 second), is there a third level you unlock further in the hero mode ? Which would be instant and have even more range ? Cause the one I have still has limited range too.
Hero mode always have the longest and strongest skyward strike possible.
In hero mode you get instant skyward strike where you normally would get the improved skyward strike.
Okay that's what I thought, so there are 2 powers and 3 speeds to it.
You first have power 1 - speed 1, then power 2 - speed 2
And in hero mode you have power 2 - speed 2 then you unlock power 2 - speed 3 if I'm right :p
I was surprised to see TheOnly0 instant skyward strike in the end of his hero mode, as I haven't finished mine atm (I can only play on week ends as my Wii is at my parents' -.-), thanks for the info.
You first have power 1 - speed 1, then power 2 - speed 2
And in hero mode you have power 2 - speed 2 then you unlock power 2 - speed 3 if I'm right :p
I was surprised to see TheOnly0 instant skyward strike in the end of his hero mode, as I haven't finished mine atm (I can only play on week ends as my Wii is at my parents' -.-), thanks for the info.
All B items and their upgrades
All medals
8 pouches
All HC's and HP's
5 bottles
Hylian Shield
9900 wallet
Dowsing slots full
Let's all just settle on that and be done with it :P.
PS: I did not know that you needed the two HC medals to have 20 HC's... I thought they'd be 2 extras, making 22 total. In that case all medals is ibviously the way to go.. and I've had all HP's all this time thinking I had 8 more to find lol.
All medals
8 pouches
All HC's and HP's
5 bottles
Hylian Shield
9900 wallet
Dowsing slots full
Let's all just settle on that and be done with it :P.
PS: I did not know that you needed the two HC medals to have 20 HC's... I thought they'd be 2 extras, making 22 total. In that case all medals is ibviously the way to go.. and I've had all HP's all this time thinking I had 8 more to find lol.
Last edited 09 Dec 2011, 17:41 by aleckermit.
I just collected all the Cubes, and it doesn't update what it says at all. Collecting the chests..
One of my wishlists for this game was that they include a % counter. Why Nintendo, why
One of my wishlists for this game was that they include a % counter. Why Nintendo, why
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Also, just finished testing. That message only comes up *after* you open all the chests as well.
I'm convinced that We should grab all the chests too. The one thing I did notice though is they never put a rupee chest 'by itself' meaning that with islands that only have 1 chest, it's usually a medal or a heart piece. The ones with multiple will have a medal/hp with like, a rupee chest or one that has a satchel/quiver/bomb bag, so it's not like it would add on that much time if we do. That's another thing too, since you grab those items from the chests, wemightaswellupgradethemtoosincetheycorrespondwithb-buttons hehe
Last edited 09 Dec 2011, 18:32 by AniMeowzerz.
You don't level all 150 pokemon to 100 in a 100%, so I say either get 8 fully upgraded version of each Arrow/Bomb/Seed bag, or don't require upgrading them at all.
You don't level all 150 pokemon to 100 in a 100%, so I say either get 8 fully upgraded version of each Arrow/Bomb/Seed bag, or don't require upgrading them at all.
QFT
*throws in cents*
Okay, I knew when I was playing this game that 100% was gonna be hard to define. I've been thinking about this for a while now, and I think I have a semi-decent idea.
With hero mode, you're gonna have the bug/treasure counts already, so I think those should not be required, unless you set an arbitrary number to collect anyway.
All B items should be required, but I think the upgrades should come down to whether or not it's gonna be beneficial to the run. Upgrading the bug minion makes sense speedrun-wise, but it doesn't make much sense to upgrade the bug net, especially if bugs aren't required. But in the same sense, one could argue that if you upgrade one, you must upgrade the others.
I think that the goddess chests that aren't rupees should be required, if they are required at all. The rupee chests seem really dumb to require, especially if it happens that you don't have room in your wallet when it comes time to collect it, because then Fi's gonna be all "yo, you can't collect this, you're wallet is full". Bottles and medals and stuff like that in the chests seem more likely to be required. So unless you can account for wallet fullness, which would be really hard, then I say just go for the important stuff. Pouch items are somewhat hard to define, as you can't carry absolutely everything with you, though. But if medals are required, just go for the medal chests.
I think Hylian shield should be required, but no other shield. My reasoning for that is because it's the best shield, and it requires no upgrades (from what I remember). Plus, you'll be there anyway for that stupid heart piece.
I don't think you should upgrade the arrow/seed/bomb at all. They take up space in your pouch, and aren't permanently attached to that item, like in OOT where they were. If it's not a permanent upgrade, then it shouldn't be required. I never needed them in my game, and the bomb system is incredibly broken and awesome in this game, so I don't see having the upgrades with us all that important. This also brings up the point about the heart medals--it's not permanent, so why require it? I don't see any point in the pouch items really.
Also an interesting point is about that bug sidequest with beedle. You get that half-price coupon from him. Should that be required?
Okay, I knew when I was playing this game that 100% was gonna be hard to define. I've been thinking about this for a while now, and I think I have a semi-decent idea.
With hero mode, you're gonna have the bug/treasure counts already, so I think those should not be required, unless you set an arbitrary number to collect anyway.
All B items should be required, but I think the upgrades should come down to whether or not it's gonna be beneficial to the run. Upgrading the bug minion makes sense speedrun-wise, but it doesn't make much sense to upgrade the bug net, especially if bugs aren't required. But in the same sense, one could argue that if you upgrade one, you must upgrade the others.
I think that the goddess chests that aren't rupees should be required, if they are required at all. The rupee chests seem really dumb to require, especially if it happens that you don't have room in your wallet when it comes time to collect it, because then Fi's gonna be all "yo, you can't collect this, you're wallet is full". Bottles and medals and stuff like that in the chests seem more likely to be required. So unless you can account for wallet fullness, which would be really hard, then I say just go for the important stuff. Pouch items are somewhat hard to define, as you can't carry absolutely everything with you, though. But if medals are required, just go for the medal chests.
I think Hylian shield should be required, but no other shield. My reasoning for that is because it's the best shield, and it requires no upgrades (from what I remember). Plus, you'll be there anyway for that stupid heart piece.
I don't think you should upgrade the arrow/seed/bomb at all. They take up space in your pouch, and aren't permanently attached to that item, like in OOT where they were. If it's not a permanent upgrade, then it shouldn't be required. I never needed them in my game, and the bomb system is incredibly broken and awesome in this game, so I don't see having the upgrades with us all that important. This also brings up the point about the heart medals--it's not permanent, so why require it? I don't see any point in the pouch items really.
Also an interesting point is about that bug sidequest with beedle. You get that half-price coupon from him. Should that be required?
Also an interesting point is about that bug sidequest with beedle. You get that half-price coupon from him. Should that be required?
Ehh, we'll have to do all side-quests to get the 9000 rupee wallet / all gratitude crystals, so ofc we'll have to get the coupon.