100% definition

aleckermit wrote

Dowsing slots full

Not sure you get the heart dowsing on hero mode (cause there's no hearts), even with the two heart medals fi doesn't activate it...

Another thing too, I think the hero mode used for a 100% should be clean, i.e. no bugs and no "treasures" from a previous save.. That would be a bit lame else, just selling few treasures to get max rupees and spend 10 minutes at workshop to just upgrade all items and that's it..
But well, this means you'll get the treasure get cutscene at every segment (derp this is a lizard tail it's a tail from a lizard and it's spiky houuu)

Any carry-overs like that seem like they would be classified as New Game+ according to SDA's standards, which sounds fine: defining a separate category if anyone cares, but allowing it to be kept out of other runs.

You can get heart dowsing on hero mode.

I say that since the time saved between NG+ over Normal is so minimal when considering that this will probably end up being a 5-7 hour run, we should just not have normal and NG+ categories, similar to how no one gives a damn about MQ any%

So, this is about where I think things should be at...

• Timing starts as soon as you gain control of Link, to accommodate the possibility that Normal somehow ends up being the faster game.
• Hero Mode starts off with 0 bugs / treasures (easy to set up)
• All dowsing targets must be enabled
• At least one of each bug/treasure must be obtained
• All Goddess Chests must be opened
• All items that can't be sold at the item check (not counting potions) must be obtained
• Every item that must be obtained is upgraded to their maximum power
• Must finish the game with 20 Heart containers?
• The largest wallet (9900 rupees) must be obtained

Why finish the game with 20 hearts ? I guess it's for aesthetic but carrying 2 life medals is just a pain in the ass :< Better have 18 without medals and carry useful stuff.

Well now as I think of it, if you're talking about a segmented run (I hardly imagine someone doing a single segment 100% run, this ain't super mario 64 :D ), there's not really any item useful cause medals are just bonuses that slightly help, so why not finish with 20 hearts.

Agreed on the rest too.

I completely disagree with not allowing Hero Mode to start with bugs and treasure. It's built into the game and there's no reason to disallow taking advantage of it. Let's ban using skyward strikes too since that carries over into hero mode. In terms of the "this just means you'll sell treasure/bugs over and over for rupees" - that seems like a big waste of time to me, considering you'd have to go out of your way for it and we're going to be picking up plenty of rupees with goddess chests if those are going to be part of the definition, plus probably a ton of other things from sidequests and other stuff (like the 20 rupees you get for cleaning Pipit's house and the 600 rupees you get from Batreaux, off the top of my head).

mzx's list is missing the Hylian Shield (unless that's covered under "all items that can't be sold at the item check"? i don't remember if you can sell it) and the extra pouch spaces - are we agreed on getting all four extra spaces?

Wow big thread.

I agree with Paraxade, we should take advantage of being allowed treasure and bugs when the game starts. But perhaps we can throw a limit on it and say we can only start with the treasures (and bugs?) that are used to upgrade items required for 100% completion. But it doesn't matter, because like he said, you get so many rupees from the requirements we've established so far. Btw you get 900 total from Batreaux, once he gives you a gold rupee, then later he gives you twice at once.

That'd be arbitrary. We should be able to start with as much treasure and bugs as we want.

mzxrules wrote

I say that since the time saved between NG+ over Normal is so minimal when considering that this will probably end up being a 5-7 hour run, we should just not have normal and NG+ categories, similar to how no one gives a damn about MQ any%

I'd say skipping cutscenes are pretty awesome.

Paraxade wrote

I completely disagree with not allowing Hero Mode to start with bugs and treasure. It's built into the game and there's no reason to disallow taking advantage of it. Let's ban using skyward strikes too since that carries over into hero mode. In terms of the "this just means you'll sell treasure/bugs over and over for rupees" - that seems like a big waste of time to me, considering you'd have to go out of your way for it and we're going to be picking up plenty of rupees with goddess chests if those are going to be part of the definition, plus probably a ton of other things from sidequests and other stuff (like the 20 rupees you get for cleaning Pipit's house and the 600 rupees you get from Batreaux, off the top of my head).

I actually didn't consider selling treasures, I was thinking more in terms of creating the 100% category in a way that would make NG+ close enough to a normal game so that they wouldn't be separate categories. That, and I think Chrono Trigger's NG+ category is dumb as shit.

Quote

mzx's list is missing the Hylian Shield (unless that's covered under "all items that can't be sold at the item check"? i don't remember if you can sell it) and the extra pouch spaces - are we agreed on getting all four extra spaces?

I just guessed that the Hylian Shield can't be sold. If it is, I think it still deserves to be obtained. Extra pouches kind of falls under "all items that can't be sold at the item check", and most are obtained through goddess chests anyhow.

What does everyone else feel about ending with 20 hearts?

IMO either way is fine as long as you get the medals, leave it up to personal preference. That said it would be easier to verify if 20 hearts are on show.

Also agreeing with Parax here, we should just be able to start with however many bugs/treasures we want in NG+. No matter how many arbitrary modifications you make to NG+ they are still just that, arbitrary. Also I don't know how I feel about them being a part of the 100% definition, the main/only justification for that is they have icons on the pause menu correct?

mzxrules wrote

Extra pouches kind of falls under "all items that can't be sold at the item check", and most are obtained through goddess chests anyhow.

Actually you only get 1 adventure pouch from goddess cubes (your very first goddess cube)

you buy the other 3 from beedle

I was thinking about how hylian shield is gonna be a bitch to get.
You need to beat 9 bosses to get it (or 10 ? Can't remember), but these bosses are random, so for the best time you'd need to avoid the 2 (3 ?) slowest bosses in the boss rush, that's a lot of retries ;o

I think the slowest are horde, imprisoned 2 and.. imprisoned 3.

Good luck on that segment for anybody planning to 100% SS :p

Tamis wrote

I was thinking about how hylian shield is gonna be a bitch to get.
You need to beat 9 bosses to get it (or 10 ? Can't remember), but these bosses are random, so for the best time you'd need to avoid the 2 (3 ?) slowest bosses in the boss rush, that's a lot of retries ;o

I think the slowest are horde, imprisoned 2 and.. imprisoned 3.

Good luck on that segment for anybody planning to 100% SS :p

The imprisoned are very fast compared to some bosses like tentalus which takes a long time no matter what.
all imprisoned can be done in about 1 minute.

I've never done horde battle in time trial so I have no idea about that one though.

And you have to defeat 8 bosses in a row.

Well I just looked the boss battles time trials threads to determine which were longer. Still I think the imprisoned are kinda long, at least 2 and 3 cause you have to be very safe to hit his feet (if you try landing on its head he will make you fall.. I guess ? I tried many times and I always falled.), while other boss battles with good strats can be done really quick (see time trials thread).

Still with 8/12 battles, the odds are against you if you want to make a really good time on that, and segmented is supposed to be optimal/near perfect.. :/

EDIT : my bad, didn't read well the times, so yeah ~2 mn for tentalus and koloktos, and that's ingame timer (which doesn't count jumping into water to make boss get out of water faster for example), so yeah you'd want to avoid these two, and horde, and I think imprisoned 2 which is the longest of the three.
I think the chances are 1 in 495 to avoid these 4 battles.

Demise is always last so you aren't going to fight him either way. That means there's only three fights you would need to avoid, and I think Horde has a relatively small chance of coming up early anyway (I never had it come up when I was trying to get the hylian shield on my Hero playthrough).

I didn't know for demise, that's 8 fights out of 11, that's 1 in 165, but I guess it can never be perfect so the runner would seek optimum time over optimum runs, looking for the perfect bosses (ie avoiding the three slowest) sounds suicidal, and then you need a goddamn good time, so anyways let's forget about that matter it's rather pointless :p

I had horde rather early though, I think 6th fight, I even died on it (horde with one heart ? Challenge accepted... reach third barrier, oh shit a bomb blew up your face) :p I think the random in it is fine, you have the same chances of getting any boss. Good luck for a 100% runner, boss rush in hero mode is hard as shit (well to me.. due to lame controls, link swinging sword when you want to shield bash, and whatnot :/ )

edit : actually you can get demise first, if you're pro at it you can get a pretty decent time (someone got a 30s strat on the time trial thread), it would be good to start with too :p

How sure are we that the boss battles are actually fully randomised? Aside from some ghirahim/imprisoned oddities I've never had boss battles go out of order in boss rush. For me the repeat bosses always appear in the same spots relative to other bosses but sometimes it'll for example give me the last ghirahim first, or all 3 imprisoneds in a row, or something like that. But I will always get a ghirahim first, then scaldera, etc, and always in the right spots assuming they didn't clump. Derp post above proves they are randomised. But I'm assuming the randomiser at least heavily favours the natural order.

I dunno I probably haven't played as many full rushes as you guys but it didn't look all that random in my experience.

Anyway it's kinda dumb that we'd have to fight all the bosses again for Hylian Shield, I'm gonna actually check to make sure it's not sellable. (Edit: It's not.)

Hmm, I usually get one of the Ghirahim's first as well. I've done boss rush quite a bit on a non-hero mode file, and it seems more pseudo-randomized like EA said before he edited his post. Generally Koloktos or Tentalus are the last boss for me, and it seemed to go in an order related to difficulty. But every now and again it will be seemingly completely random. Perhaps some research should be done on this.

Well someone should try starting (on a hero mode) with boss X and see what bosses are after it, then repeat and see if it's pseudo random.

I often had tentalus in my first bosses (and I always start with ghirahim 1), also imprisoned 3. Never had koloktos though.. So yeah, it must be pseudo random...

Maybe they use a different randomiser for Hero and Normal modes?
I will laugh though if the seed is simply the first boss you pick. Painfully simple method of randomising.

I don't think the seed is ENTIRELY the first boss you pick, because I usually pick Imprisoned 3 as the first fight, since it's really the only one that will cause me to fail, if I'm wrong when I choose to wait for Groose instead of skydiving for phase 2. However, I do think it may have some effect on which bosses come after.

To make thing very simple we can say that 100% is everything of upgrades and tasks. In some game, maybe this one, it may be inconveniently long and boring. So it may be hard to make fully  completion of some games suitable in a speed run format. People who think a clearly defined draft for 100% run sounds boring doesn't need to do such a run, nor watch such a run of considerable longevity.

Noob here, so please forgive if I hit any nerves, just figured I'd throw in a few cents into the fairy fountain

mzxrules wrote

I say that since the time saved between NG+ over Normal is so minimal when considering that this will probably end up being a 5-7 hour run, we should just not have normal and NG+ categories, similar to how no one gives a damn about MQ any%

So, this is about where I think things should be at...

• Timing starts as soon as you gain control of Link, to accommodate the possibility that Normal somehow ends up being the faster game.
• Hero Mode starts off with 0 bugs / treasures (easy to set up)
• All dowsing targets must be enabled
• At least one of each bug/treasure must be obtained
• All Goddess Chests must be opened
• All items that can't be sold at the item check (not counting potions) must be obtained
• Every item that must be obtained is upgraded to their maximum power
• Must finish the game with 20 Heart containers?
• The largest wallet (9900 rupees) must be obtained

I agree with 0 bugs/treasures. Kind of a cheap shortcut to start a "100%" already having enough treasures from the previous save to upgrade everything. Although running through an area specifically to grind them out is boring, I think it might be kind of neat to see if & how collecting them can be integrated into the main run itself (e.g. grabbing a few tumbleweeds while running through the desert to do the things there). Fastest hero time without having to collect treasures would be significantly shorter and not quite representative of the time in which a 100% run could be done (who knows how much time was spent grinding treasures before saving to hero mode?). If anything, starting hero mode with enough treasures would be another category, since it could be way shorter.

Also concur with not requiring the buyable shields/ammo upgrades. I never considered Medigoron's Sword as part of 100% in OoT when Biggoron's Sword is superior, so I think the only shield upgrade needed is to the Hylian shield. I don't see why you should waste treasures on upgrading inferior shields or ammo capacity. Those things are only for people like me who aren't pro at the game and keep missing the target and breaking their shield. Like potions.

Something I just thought of for the Hylian shield boss battle - if your pouch is full it gets sent to item check. Does "having" it mean that you have it ON you, or is leaving it in item check fine? Probably a negligible difference since you go back to the item check frequently anyway (to talk to your darling :P).

The only thing I don't agree with in this list: Dowsing targets are of dubious value. Sometimes the game doesn't even give you all of them (I never got the one for the gratitude crystals, don't know why, but had to find them myself).

0 bugs/treasures is a bad move since 100% in hero mode is already a new game+ type of save.

if you want to do 100% and start with 0 bugs/treasures, do it in normal mode.

UchihaSasuke wrote

0 bugs/treasures is a bad move since 100% in hero mode is already a new game+ type of save.

if you want to do 100% and start with 0 bugs/treasures, do it in normal mode.

The only advantage of a hero mode with no bugs or treasures is the cutscene skipping and the quicker skyward strike... The cutscene skipping is mostly why the game is being speed ran in hero mode I guess, so that only leaves a minor difference.

I dunno why you're talking about hero mode... That would be a completely different category wouldn't it? Fresh file: 0% -> 100%. Hero mode: Exploit it as much as possible and go from X% -> 100%. Possible separate category would be Hero mode low% -> 100%. This would also accomodate for the "control of link" timing thing which I don't like for some reason.

Collecting one of each for the "collection" screen unlocks a picture and some information. Kind of like scanning in metroid prime if you ask me, so I think that would be a requirement. Saying "they're just icons" is like saying additional bottles or stone of agony in OoT are redundant because they don't add to gameplay (a new bottle doesn't add anything other than an additional slot, just like the pouches and SoA require hardware modification or isn't available on all versions) and they're "just icons".

Cubes... Nintendo made it a challenge to find them and that should be motivation enough for 100%. At the very least, the routes for activating them should be interesting enough to watch (which is what we're going after?). But opening all the chests would just be pointless and tedious and as an analogy, after collecting 100 skulltulas you're not required to collect rupees from the father, right? And the icons are just that: just icons on the map screen! Map screen =/= inventory.

I think unlocking all the save points should be a requirement because you gain the ability to warp to different zones, sort of how Link gains abilities from the wolf in TP if you ask me.

Gaining 4 adventure pouches should also be a requirement simply because of the menu system. But when it comes to bomb upgrades and stuff... I'm like Ani here. One fully upgraded of all or none at all, but I slightly favour the first one just because it seems right (for historical reasons :p). But only hylian shield because it's "the best".

Medals are like potions only that you can use them whenever you like for no additional cost. But Lon Lon Milk in MM isn't part of 100% is it? So I vote no.




So here's a defining moment: All icons which would mean you have to do everything possible about any icons in the inventory screen including the map screen which would mean all dungeon maps, chests etc in the game. Or ignore the map screen since they're on different buttons which means skipping maps and chests (including stone chests). HOWEVER; warps is an intrinsic unavoidable feature of the game and therefore warps should still be required even if you ignore the map screen.

Lets say we choose "only all icons in the inventory". Then we have to define if only static icons or are you required to have all of the icons in your inventory at some point. Technically that would require 0-99 or 999 or however many things you can collect, including different colours (green for full) but I guess we can ignore that. Either way, is it agreed upon that if all, then only the maximum/best would be required?


Someone needs to put the hammer down on some of these things and start defining...

But TimpZ, there is difference between Skulltulas (On which note, I believe it was mentioned to not compare to other games because dtuff) and the Goddess Chests. Outside the map, if you don't have them all, the game will tell you so, IIRC, via your inventory.

Baron Dante wrote

But TimpZ, there is difference between Skulltulas (On which note, I believe it was mentioned to not compare to other games because dtuff) and the Goddess Chests. Outside the map, if you don't have them all, the game will tell you so, IIRC, via your inventory.

Indeed. As mentioned earlier, checking the Goddess Cube Dowsing option only gives the completion message after not only activating the chests, but opening them.

I was not aware of that (I havn't actually completed the game yet). But apparently it's a dowsing target you can obtain and if we're going to obtain all those + clearing them then I don't really see why not collecting all of them  instead of only the interesting ones wouldn't be part of 100%. It is 100% for a reason...

But we have to compare with something. Otherwise it'd be like describing quantum mechanics without classical physics models. I.e. almost impossible...