OoT3D: 100% Segmented Discussion [NG+ Saw]

This route has a lot of good ideas put into it. Do you think you could move the breaking the first web into segment 2 along with the gold skulltula? It's a time saver if you break the web, climb back up to 1F, leave then save warp.

As for KZ, I've tried to skip him by using TSC and a bomb similar to the Fire Temple BK skip because there's ice and it does not work unfortunately.  :(

Also, we can get everything in DMC with megaflips as a child, so why don't we get bugs from the grotto with 20 bombs for the GS near the warp and get the other heart piece to save time?

I think it depends there because I want to know if the Bolero, Minuet, Serenade and Prelude cutscenes would save time if they were skipped.

r0bd0g wrote

"speedrunning is getting through the game as fast as possible no matter what"
But you spend a few hours setting up the file?

Ummm... setting up a file for NG+ takes like 5 minutes. But maybe that's just me because I actually kept my complete file...

Did you guys not read what I said about the saw streamlining the adult routing? It's hardly even a NG+, we have it for 15 minutes and then equip the sword. I really don't see what the big deal is. It takes five minutes to make the file.

Edit: this is turning into the original MST discussion: You guys aren't willing to put in the time to practice things like Slingshot Skip, or god forbid actually test your own routes. We're here to speedrun, not complain about how hard it is to do so. If you're going to complain, get the fuck out, I don't want you here. If you're going to post stupid shit about completely irrelevant things, get the fuck out, I don't want you here. Why don't you all grow up a little.

Right. So anyway.

I didn't head up for the top floor spider b/c the normal oot seg'd didn't do it and I figured they must have had a good reason. That said, they had dins and they didn't have to leave after. You have to remember if you backtrack from sling you have a couple rooms to go through and a ladder to knock down. It'd be something you might have to time later. If you want to leave and then sw... well I guess you could make a whole segment out of that, though you'd have to get hit by an extra guard bomb or something to get that 1/2 heart.

We could get the dirt patch GS using Bolero. Maybe a megaflip could be faster than warping but I think it's a good idea to plant a bean in here, and we don't have beans yet. It'll probably be a while before we get them. The other heart piece maybe we could get now. Like, come out of double magic, megaflip over, and then head into GC. I was thinking we might ride the bean to it, though; it'll have to be checked whether or not that's faster. As for the grotto with the bombs, we don't need that because we're getting the 30 bag right after. I just added that to the route now; I'd forgotten it was there. Hopefully our bomb counts won't be too low as a result of getting that so early.

Bolero, Minuet, and Serenade are all probably going to be skipped. I'm not sure how the damage buffering and the text speed differences, as well as the fact that we've got the hearts from all the child dungeons already, are going to affect how much time they save. Prelude CS skip... if you can use bombs in the ToT on 3DS it'll probably be done as well. You'll probably SW into the ToT so I'm kinda worried about how you'll actually damage yourself down. EDIT: I guess you could RI FW over and over to damage buffer, but I had the idea just now you could cast FW at the start of a seg, go and do something and take damage while you do it, and then fw back and do the cs skip.

I'm worried about the scarecrow song GS in DC. IDK how to route that. You might have to backtrack to DC at some point just to get it, unless there's something else you could do.

You know what? Never mind. I'm done. Do whatever you want. I don't care. Sorry for getting pissed.

Prelude CS skip works using RI restricted items... just tested it.

However after testing the staircase GS in DC, I have had no luck with any hoverboot tricks. I've come pretty close though. If I can be precise enough to do a roll and a backflip or a jumpslash in one hammer or hoverslide, I might be able to get it. For now, though, no such luck.

benstephens1000 wrote

Prelude CS skip works using RI restricted items... just tested it.

However after testing the staircase GS in DC, I have had no luck with any hoverboot tricks. I've come pretty close though. If I can be precise enough to do a roll and a backflip or a jumpslash in one hammer or hoverslide, I might be able to get it. For now, though, no such luck.

if you are talking about the gs where you bomb the stupid staircase to make it come down that gs can be got with a hoverslide with a hammer or bomb you'll grab the ledge have to turn around doing it the hammer way it's pretty easy did it my first try

LttpMmOot wrote

if you are talking about the gs where you bomb the stupid staircase to make it come down that gs can be got with a hoverslide with a hammer or bomb you'll grab the ledge have to turn around doing it the hammer way it's pretty easy did it my first try

Really O.o
I feel silly now

I'm still going on a route, kinda just for the hell of it at this point. :p

It's up until the start of Child 2. It's just a rough idea so there's a lot that could be improved and a couple of things that I'm not sure I've made the right decision on... but I don't own the game so... There's probably some fundamental flaw I've overlooked. :p

http://pastebin.com/td0qgK1n

Couple of typos >_>. That should be Twin's House GS in the Kokiri Forest seg...

I'd like to apologize to everyone. I was a snobby little brat, and I overreacted. LttpMmOot was being a little bitch and everything I was working for fell apart so I jumped ship. I'm still working on my route in my spare time though. So with robdog and I working, we will have both a NG+ and NG route for people to choose from.

At the suggestion of Nook, I'll be making an oot3d IRC channel. I will be owner, and op will be given to people who will not abuse it. You can also just go there to hang out. ^_^

it's made, #OoT3D

I've never wanted there to be that much tension with this. It's just routing, and it's better to talk to other people about it. 100% is going to take work to have a solid route, no matter what happens.
@R0bd0g This route has some great ideas going with it. I do think we have to split the shadow temple into two parts, only because of the Gold Skulltula near the boat.
Also in the Spirit Temple the Child section can be accessed, but it's from the other side, which requires a key to reach it. I think it would be good to only obtain 3 of the keys in Spirit and not skip the BK.

"I do think we have to split the shadow temple into two parts, only because of the Gold Skulltula near the boat."

On normal OoT, there's some sort of hover boots trick to get over there to reach that. Or maybe there could be some sort of hookshot jump from the ladder, though IDK if there's a line of sight to get up there and it seems kinda far-ish. :/


"Also in the Spirit Temple the Child section can be accessed, but it's from the other side"

There's a crawlspace on either side of that GS. You mean there's a clip to get past the crawl space somehow? What I don't like about getting that GS as child is Nabooru... She talk and talks and talks...

There is a trick for the boat GS, no need to split.

Oot 3d has hookshot clipping, which we can use on the left torch to get to the Child Spirit area.
What's the trick for the boat GS?
*Edit: Never mind I just got there with a hoverslide.

r0bd0g, i only had time to read the beginning of your route before starting my chores, but you get the slingshot first thing. There is an easy trick in DC that allows us to skip slingshot, allowing us to make one trip to Deku Tree with bombs later on. That's my only comment right now, but I'll look over more of it later.

Congrats Kixs on making the new IRC. I've wanted to do that for a bit but never got around to it :P

A way to get to the boat skulltula... I like the sound of that.

So I think that we shouldn't do the new mirror shield early... it just doesn't work with all of the skulltulas... but I'm sure we have all already thought of that.

Norkixs. We want the sling because we can skip the ZL CS with it using the a guard bomb. In the end I think it'll save time.

Okay, I've made a decision for the NG+ route: we will RI FWWW to Gauntlets. Now hopefully, I will get around to testing a CS skip for when we open the chest. Getting Silver Gaunts as child will allow us to get the silver rock GS in ZF immediately after Ice Cavern. And it's going to be a BITCH to get any other way.

Commencing CS skip testing...

So what would a spirit route look like... We might be able to do it all one the first visit, or maybe coming back with the longshot would be better.


Spirit:

Seg 0
- Nayru's
- Nayru's GS
- Palm tree gs?
- Enter spirit

Seg 1
- Silver block skip
- Song of Time GS
- Key (1)

Seg 2
- Requiem (if we have to come back with the longshot, then consider all this stuff to happen much later)
- Or should we get the palm tree GS now?
- HSJ to Heart Piece (I was thinking we'd have to come back with the Bean here but HSJ is probably faster than the bean even if it were here)
- Early Mirror Shield
- Go inside and cast FW
- Mirror Shield
- Do some sort of trick to get to the Silvers, hoverslide, HSJ off the chest, something. Longshot would save a bit time here even if something can be done to get across without it.
- Don't get the silvers b/c there has got to be some sort of skip to get to the silver rock GS. There are a bunch of things in ZF you can hookshot. Has anybody tried a hookshot jump underwater in 3D yet? If it's possible (you have to take off the irons to do it so maybe that'd cause a problem) and you get more height like in normal OoT, I wouldn't be surprised if you can go straight to where that GS is. If not, there's probably some way to jump or clip to OoB water or something and from there you could probably swim in the OoB water to get to it. This is seg'd so even if it's hard you gotta do what's fast.
- Use your Key (0) to get the GS (longshot might save a second). Ignore the Iron Knuckle.

Seg 3
- Return FW
- Beat the Iron Knuckle
- Use Mirror to get a key (1)
- Use key to get to climb wall room (0)
- Climb wall room. Long shot would save time here but if you can just HSJ to the top then it probably won't be much.
- Ignore the BK
- Mirror puzzle room, cast FW
- Maybe don't solve the puzzle and just somehow HSJ down to where the GS is in the room below? Or it would probably be unloaded... If solving the puzzle is a good idea, the longshot might save a good bit of time in this room as well since you could probably longshot the GS from the platform and then jump to the ZL hand. I'm not sure what route you'd need to take for the GS in that case. I should time whether or not to solve the mirror puzzle or head up adult side...
- Hand ZL Key (1)
- GS in main room
- To Lower Child side
- There are some chus in here but you probably don't need them
- GS
- Use Key (0)
- Hookshot clip
- Kill the dudes, get the GS

Seg 4
- Return FW
- Cast FW
- BK Skip
- Beat Twinrova
- Heart Container, RI FW CS Skip

Child 2
- Play requiem
- Soil GS



So, does that sound OK? Anything sound slow? Any faster ideas? Did I miss anything? Will the longshot save the time it takes to warp with requiem and walk over to the temple? I guess right now since the longshot is required to get the silvers I should just route it like that. Does getting that gs as adult sound faster to you? Actually after this is the prelude cs skip and I just got that heart container, it'll take a long time to get damaged down. Now I'm thinking maybe we should save adult spirit for after longshot.

Also I was just watching RG do Shadow and he used the longshot to a second or 2 in a number of unexpected places. Kinda needs to be timed, and it'd be a hard thing to time. I think for now I'll leave that for 1 go.

I hookshot jumped onto the wall of Zora's Fountain, but can't see a way to get to the skulltula. The highest you can get is still quite a bit below the hole in the cliff. If someone wants to do more testing with this, you need to use a chu at the peak of the jump.

Unless someone else finds a way up there, we'll need to get gauntlets.

I kinda wish I could mess around with this stuff... :/

Did you go higher when you did it underwater? Can you go higher by aiming higher using the longshot. If not... I guess this and oot's hookshot megajump are more different than I realize... Did you try getting into the OoB water and swimming over to the area below the silver rock? If we -have- to get gauntlets I guess I should consider goldies... Not sure what the route for that would be like.

Actually does the trick to skip delivering eye drops still work? Do you still have 1 second? Does the heat timer still override the delivery timer? If you still have 1 second but the heat timer doesn't work, FW could maybe be used? Actually, maybe FW would be used anyway?

I'm not sure about the timer thing, but doom jumping underwater doesn't work at all because link doesn't have that animation where he jumps to put on the boots.

Oh shit, I never thought to try swimming under the rock! I'll go do it right now!

I've been thinking about the spirit route some more... I guess I've decided what I'm gonna do unless somebody tells me something is possible that I didn't know about.

The mirror puzzle room could be better if you could do the actor glitch and just jump down to the main room. The problem is I've heard weird things about the actor glitch on 3D, so IDK if you'll be able to spawn the key chest or open the bars to get to the GS once I get to the child side. I'm thinking it's not gonna work. Too bad you can't just set FW down there and then reset to fix the problem because you'll want FW in the mirror room to BK skip... unless I guess if there's a BK skip from the main room. That'd be swell, wouldn't it? You could climb adult side instead of solving the mirror puzzle to get to the main room, and it could have been slightly faster if you didn't need another key.

Let's check whether or not the mirror shield from Colossus thing is worth it? Let's see what you'd have to do if you didn't, uh... First you'd have to climb lower adult side, which uses up your first key. You'd use your ZL key to get to lower child side. You'd find a replacement for the first key in lower child side (hopefully the gate clip that was possible on normal OoT is still working so that this key is fast). Then you'd have to climb upper child side. There's a really long and slow block push (if you wanted to do adult side, which seems faster, you'd have to get another key, and the only other key is the upper child side key with all the torches). Later, you wouldn't have to solve the mirror room puzzle since you'd already cleared out the main room, so you'd just BK skip (this doesn't cut out a FW use since you'd still be using FW to get out of lower child side). So, early mirror shield saves pushing the block in upper child side and fighting the iron knuckle that follows. You trade climbing lower adult side and getting the lower child side key for the mirror room puzzle. I think climbing lower adult side might have been about on par if not slightly faster if not for needing to pick up that extra key. My hunch is that the early mirror shield is faster but maybe it shouldn't be one of those things that's just assumed (unless you can't quickly get that key, in which case I'm going to assume).

If a way is found to skip longshot when getting to the Silver Gauntlets, I'm not sure whether to do it. I think so? But I'm not sure. I'm thinking longshot will save 4 or 5 seconds getting the GS in the main room. I can't check but I assume you can still get that GS with the hookshot by shooting at it from a little ways up the arm. Assuming you can hookshot jump up that big climb wall, the long shot probably only saves a couple seconds there. There's probably a couple more seconds in a couple places, like the other climb wall or getting the upper child side GS. All this against we're talking like 30 or 40 seconds to warp to spirit. It'll probably depend on what exactly you'd have to do to get to the silvers. I guess I'll plan for now that there's no quick way to get over.

"Oh shit, I never thought to try swimming under the rock! I'll go do it right now!"
.... I can't tell if this is sarcastic or not >_>. This is how they're doing it in normal OoT, if you didn't know.

"but doom jumping underwater doesn't work at all"
Lame. I guess because gravity is lower underwater, the hookshot jumps go like 3x (or more?) as high. It's too bad it doesn't work.

The heat timer still overrides the spoiler timer. I know this I warped to DMC during Ganon's escape with FW. That timer is the same timer as the spoiler one because it softlocks with the item is spoiled message if it runs out anywhere else, and I canceled it by dying with the heat timer going. As for obtaining the sword, I'm not sure.
As for obtaining the Mirror Shield it ultimately skips obtaining a fourth key which saves more time than skipping the BK. We can skip the BK from the main room if the platform is lowered from above, which I'm not sure about doing yet. Also, we can hookshot jump into the mirror puzzle room where everything is unloaded except for the mirrors. These options could be better if the actor glitch does not work. If the actor glitch does work, we'll have to get back to the top room somehow.

I tried for an hour last  night and two this morning. Not once could I get into the hole, which lingered so tantalizingly on the edge of the visible map. The real problem is that the camera doesn't follow Link. if there was a way to get the camera back behind Link, maybe it would be possible. But for now, it is... IMPOSSIBRU! ( sorry >_<)

It's quite possible Grezzo took out the water underneath the land. If that is the case, then we'll never be able to reach it. I'm going to test this a few more times with a new idea, but for now, consider the fact that this is not possible.

And no r0bd0g, I don't know how to do this in oot64. I'm learning MST, not 100% RTA.

EDIT: I'm almost there! It turns out there is a place you can poke Link back in bounds that recenters the camera, allowing you to see the OoB water again. Unfortunately, it does not go under the island. It just might be possible to get to the path. Cross your fingers, guys!

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7DTgThFkUw&feature=plcp

EDIT 2: I got it! You js AS LATE AS POSSIBLE and ou'll get right in there! DEATH TO GAUNTLETS!

Damn this is so precise. I have a proof pic though :)

Nice. This trick is like, the bane of 100% runners, lol.

Do you think planting the bean in Zora's River save any time at all? You have to go through the text to buy it, then plant it... Doesn't take that long I guess, but on 3D you could probably just HSJ using the fence to get up to where the GS is. A quick guesstimate says it'd save only a couple seconds to plant the bean, assuming you can just HSJ up there, which I think isn't enough time saved, even if you can accommodate it with a good big poe route. I'd have to think about this more*, but I think that I could put Ice Cavern and Lake Hylia into Adult 1 so I can get the Gold Scale. This will save having to figure out some sort of work-around for the HP grotto in Hyrule Field.

* EDIT: I thought about it some more. I need the bean planted in DMC too, since I want the prescription before I go to ZD. I looked into what the big poe route might be and I think it's going to work out. It's still really close, like a couple seconds either way... I'll stick with my old plan and do Ice in Adult 2, for now.

On that note, does the unfreeze king zora glitch still work?

KZ glitch doesnt work, already two confirmers. Fire temple BK skip like trick is very, very close but still needs a small boost. Im sure this might be possible with a bit of patience and planning.
I had another KZ skip theory. If we could somehow load the upper area from the lower one we could get up via the waterfall water. Sadly......etc.

Weird that they would fix something that we didn't know existed.... Could it have been a positioning thing, like, it just doesn't work out like it used to? Try using a trade item... Like, have the camera sideways and go most of the way up the stairs, face down the stairs, and pull the trade item.

Also I'd really like somebody to weigh in on whether or not they think that if I wrong warp to get nocturne I should have to get nocturne legit as well.... It could easily be considered duping.

I have my makeshift route a couple segments into adult 2 now, I just have a couple questions. I'm getting pretty close to having a first pass of the route done; I just have to route a couple of dungeons that I'm not really familiar with how they're done on 3DS.

Anyway, I just finished getting the BGS and now I have to pick a dungeon to do. So..., would you rather have the hammer in water or the longshot in fire? I wish I knew more about this game but it's hard to find information, like, what works what doesn't what new time-savers there are, etc.

I'm thinking maybe a Goron Ruby CS skip might save a bit of time. Since I'm walking all the way to Kak just to set FW for the Nocturne warp, I was thinking maybe I could just continue on up to DC and do the Nocturne warp from there. To skip the Emerald CS I'd have to throw in an extra trek from the fairy fountain into Jabu to set FW (that seemed like the next best option). Honestly that doesn't sound that great but... in order to do the WW from Deku I have to escape again, and since I have ZL, apparently I have to do WWT? So how much longer is WWT over just walking out normally? I could be enough to make the difference.

If you think it might actually save time, it'd be nice if that WW were tested if it hasn't been already. Actually, Zora Fountain->Fairy Fountain apparently warps into the Din's Fire CS. There's 35 or so second cutscene that might be faster than walking to whatever other place you could go?

I'm trying to think in my head how I could possibly CS skip Fire. I'm not sure if it's gonna work out or not. We'll see.

I have already routed water, it is very similar to N64 except we get the boss key and there are two hookshot clips to reach keys. Should we RI warp water so we can skip the cutscene? That's my question. As for Fire, we would probably need to find a suitable area to WW with it. I think it would need testing. I do want to know if we can perform the clip with BGS at the entrance to Fire anyway, because it would save a lot of time.