BiT Research Topic

I love it the idea, but this will be so much work, lol. The table was already really tedious. I guess it shouldn't be a problem if lots of people work on it though. Heh, I wonder if you can just do one of the bitWarps and then figure out the other 3 by relative coordinates.

One thing that that would be nice is maybe color coding? Like Red dot OoB and Green dot in-bounds. Oh also, adding lines to separate the different Areas of the dungeon would be really good. It would make it much easier to visualize.

(sandship is gonna hard to do)

I was rethinking this and it need much work to do. Now if I think of it I prefer table more and if that WW have any use then just add little explanation for it. Of course this picture thing is also good if lots of peoples are willing to do it!

EDIT:
I started to doing those pictures of maps and where you warp. I'm taking screenshot from emulator and editing them. It's pretty quick to with savestates and emulator. I have done few areas already. I colored them red for oob and green for inbounds and where you can move. Here is one example. Don't mind blurry numbers. Tinypic screwed them up.
Original imageLoad image

Pictures are way more helpful.
Also, if possible it would be nice if someone could test one statue, and easily coordinate where the other statues will put you(use a different color since it's still untested).
It be so much faster.

You cannot test them like that. You need to test each statue separately. Read this topic: http://forums.zeldaspeedruns.com/index.php?topic=1049.0

I edited and tested all possible bit warps last night in this game and edited maps. Be sure to comment them and if something can be done better. I hope those turn out to be usefull!

EDIT: I found this from skykeep. Does this help us to skip map in this dungeon? Somebody should test this!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bS1LXByAhX4

EDIT2:
This really needs to be tested more! You can active skyloft tower early in new file. I hope we can open storm cloud with this someday.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNd-3e6z28g&feature=youtu.be

I did a lot of tests for the light tower early trick and this is what I've found:
Where you've saved before BiT doesn't matter, what matters is whether or not the file have unlocked the light tower. (I tried saving at multiple places)
The BiT file that you load can be created beforehand, so you can have a premade unused BiT file available, you do not need to save during the process of the light tower early trick. It appears that the file have to be unused though.
I think the key requirements for this trick is:
You loaded night skyloft using a file that have already unlocked the Tower of Light. (Kazooie said that it only works during the night. I haven't checked myself)

So, I optimized the trick into this:
Have a file that have unlocked the Tower of Light in slot 1.
Have a unused BiT file in slot 2.
Activate BiT.
Enter Pipit's House. (I use this house because you're always able to sleep in it, no matter which file you've selected)
Make it night.
Exit House while file 1 is selected.
load file 2.

The Tower of Light cutscene will activate.

So for now it seems like we have to actually have a file that have unlocked the tower already, which means that it won't be allowed in speedruns.

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Also, we need a list of cutscenes that activates during BiT depending on which statue you save at. Some people may not be aware of it, but different statues results in different cutscenes during BiT.
Saving outside of Skyview Temple before BiT will for example cause the Cloud cutscene to start when you select that file during BiT.
And saving outside of Earth Temple before BiT will cause the Cloud cutscene and Batreaux door to trigger when you roll into the tree.
etc.

CloudMax wrote

So for now it seems like we have to actually have a file that have unlocked the tower already, which means that it won't be allowed in speedruns.

For regular speedruns, certainly. I get the idea that it may be feasible for NG+, but maybe not. Worth investigating.

Okay, this sounds like a good idea. This was mentioned and thought through a long time ago, but not thoroughly tested. If we are going to start testing these cutscenes with different statues, let's make an organized list. Idk how it will be, but I just don't like going in circles like with the bitwarp testing.

Abahbob wrote

Okay, this sounds like a good idea. This was mentioned and thought through a long time ago, but not thoroughly tested. If we are going to start testing these cutscenes with different statues, let's make an organized list. Idk how it will be, but I just don't like going in circles like with the bitwarp testing.

If we make a list of cutscenes it'd be something like:
Forest Temple (that's the name of the statue outside of skyview temple) Statue:

• File Selection (when you enter the menu and the file is in slot 3, or you select the file): Thunderhead Opening
• Tree (when you roll into the tree that causes a cutscene to trigger): ...
• Box (when you move the box): ...
• Bench (when you sit on the bench that triggers a cutscene): ...
• Cave (If I recall correctly, you can trigger cutscenes by going to the cave entrance. I sliced the tree and a cutscene started, I think.): ...
• Bird State (When you stop interacting with a bird statue you can trigger cutscenes): ...
• Grave Stone (Roll into the stone and push it. You have to do it during the night if I recall correctly): ...

It may also be possible to get different cutscenes by inserting the stone of trials, or walking into the sheikah stone trigger.
I'm not sure, but I think interacting with different bird statues gives different results.

If all these are possible, a table for each statue would look something like this:


So we'll basically have a list of each and every statue in the game, and then what happens when you do all different things that can trigger a cutscene during BiT... It will require a lot of testing, and right now it isn't even useful. Like, we can't do anything with the cutscenes.

Edit: There seem to be more than just the statue that affect things. For example, I tried to start the cloud cutscene using deep woods, but it didn't work until after the file had completed the first temple.
And I can't get any cutscenes to start using the earth temple statue on one of my files.

I did little bit reasearch for this awhile ago. To me it make now little bit sense. Still needs more testing though!

When you save in deep woods and your file in on file 3. You will trigger cloudhead opening cutscene byt hitting switch when you enter to skyview temple. If you do it before that in bit any cutscene wont trigger at all. And in eldin volcano if you save before opening dungeon with completed key and roll to tree or move box while in bit. Only cloudhead opening cutscene will trigger nothing else. When you have opened dungeon and go out and save again. Then do bit again and roll to tree or move box you will trigger baetraux door opening cutscene and cloudhead opening cutscenes! This all is gonna make sense soon as you can see.

Bit cutscenes have something do durrent area cutscene what you have watched. Not any flags like opening doors or hitting switches, Not anything like that. Only watched cutscenes and cutscenes only. No some shitty Fi talking :)

EDIT:
I think those cutscene what affects to this are cutscene in that area what you can skip in hero mode. Example when you first time enter dungeon or open it's door it have skipable cutscene in hero file before it. Not yet sure about this but this seems to be the case. So if this is the case and we can find tower opening cutscene spot we could really have tower of light early in new file, just maybe. Go test this guys!

Interesting. Maybe it doesn't depend on the save location. Maybe BiT just reads data from the skip.dat file then?

Kazooie and I did some brainstorming in the IRC and this is what we came up with:

It could be that loading a file during BiT counts as a cutscene trigger, just like rolling into a tree, or pushing a box.
This would explain why the tower of light cutscene starts after you load that file.
This is what I think anyway.

After that I went to find out why we needed a unused BiT file for this to work. At first I thought the file had to be in BiT skyloft, but that idea was scrapped after I tested this on a unused BiT file that was located in the regular night skyloft instead and it still worked.

So then I started looking at the theory about the save file having to saved right before a cutscene trigger. Like for example after the loftwing training. If you save here the game expects a cutscene to start the next time you load it.

So Kazooie tried this theory and it still didn't work.

Then we tried to do this after performing a BiTW on the file. (So that link isn't standing on the ceremony cutscene trigger)
Aaaaand it worked.
So, yeah, we do not have to activate the tower of light on unused BiT files now.

I don't know if I forgot anything, but it should explain why and how we think it works.

Confusing...hoping for a video soon so I can see how this works.

I haven't tested this, but perhaps it is map flags of some sort. With outside Earth Temple, it needs to be tested without keys, with keys, and with door open. Should provide some basis. Damn, this reminds me of FWWW or w/e that crap is. I must say that this is a good thing to spend some time on, especially if we can get some stuff to transfer, but there is still much more to work on. I'll try to get the bitwarp pictures up soon, hopefully will help with other stuff.

Activate light tower early without using a new file (which makes it possible in hero mode)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYT1DaCP8bc

That's confusing. When you say possible, your not talking about legit speedrunning.

KingOfHeart wrote

That's confusing. When you say possible, your not talking about legit speedrunning.

I said that it is possible to load it in hero mode. Something being possible has nothing to do with it being allowed in speedruns. =/
And I do mention that it isn't allowed in speedruns with all caps in the video description on the first row.
And the fact that the glitch is all about loading a file that have already unlocked the tower. that should speak for itself.

I keep seeing this and thinking of other glitches, like in DK64 where you can load the weapons from multiplayer into the main story, which is counted as NG+. Is there anything that would make this not get the same treatment?

The Funky Weapons glitch in DK64 counts as new game + because it involves the cutscene theater and minigame arena, which must be unlocked before they can be accessed. If there were a way to do the glitch without those, it would not be classified as new game +. Basically, NG+ involves using an unlockable mode or feature that may or may not involve transferring stats or items from previous playthroughs. You still have to beat the game from start to finish, so transferring game progress through a glitch is not allowed.

So do this means we can have NG+ category for SS. Or does SDA or some other things accept that kind of category at all? Or can we use that category in race example?

New game + in Skyward Sword would be Hero Mode. Things like the glitch to raise the Light Tower wouldn't be allowed.

Manocheese wrote

New game + in Skyward Sword would be Hero Mode. Things like the glitch to raise the Light Tower wouldn't be allowed.

What is it that makes it so that light tower early isn't NG+ when the stuff in DK64 is? I really do not see the difference to be honest.
Why is for example newgame+ in OoT3D allowed when early light tower isn't? I do not understand that either. =/

Okay, I see. So Funky's weapons just involves something that was unlocked by a separate file rather than actually taking data from that file; the thing it takes data from isn't an actual file. Meanwhile Light Tower actually does require taking data from an existing file.

CloudMax, does this explain  the difference?

Well, if you do the blank file dupe method, but instead of copying, you play, then you can get progress and save and it still says it's a blank file. Wouldn't that be similar to oot3d? It still shows the opening scene and stuff, but it is pretty similar to OoT3D.

The game data on the system as a whole is what makes it NG+, not just the individual file. NG+ comes originally from Chrono Trigger where you got ALL data from a previous file. I agree with Cloudmax. There's no reason to not allow light tower early and skykeep early in NG+.

On a side note, I would not consider Hero mode as NG+ since the gameplay is basically the same as normal except that you can skip cutscenes.

Duped files are boring. You can have a file that starts right before Demise. I wouldn't really count that as a real run.

Well, I was making a point. I would consider Hero mode NG+ because of the items carrying over, not the cutscenes.

Duped files would be so boring, it wouldn't really be much of a run.

If we were allowed to get early light tower and early sky keep we would be able to skip the light tower quest, fire sanctuary and hero song quest, right?
We would play up until the bow and then go to sky keep right away.

I have a few other ideas in mind that I haven't tried yet.

What you mean by skykeep early? Is there really way to get there early or are you just demostrating some routes? Sorry to ask such a dump question. And it seems there was litte arguement about tower of light early trick to being allowed in NG+. So it is allowed then? I don't really know what to say about this :/

I believe he was talking about having a duped blank file up to skykeep. Bleh we need a name for this and a page about it, even though it really isn't too useful.

For counting any of this as NG+, I say there is almost no way it would ever be counted, unless it could be done without a file up to that point, such as making a file, getting to let's say Faron, then using it to do early light tower. All this is theoretical of course.

While I was looking for rupee farming tricks during my first playthrough WAAAAAAY back in november, I noticed that if you kill all the enemies within the owl statue's loading barrier, they do not respawn when you reload. Could it be that this game treats statue saving like a savestate, as MM did? Sorry if this has already bren brought up (too lazy to read from beginning) or is already known, but I think actually understanding how saving works in this game may somehow help us with unlocking the secrets of BiT.

Well, I doubt it works like a savestate. That would probably stop BiT from working actually. It most likely stores separate variables and loads them, hence why you can save and load right and teleport to a different map with same coordinates. Have you checked where certain enemies appear after saving and such? BiT really doesn't have many saving mysteries. It's mainly the title screen mode that has so many questions and quirks to it. BiT itself has no secret of how it works about activating. The game loads you when you hit continue, then loads the title when you hit reset. That's the simple explanation, there are more technical reasons aswell.